Is this ordinary or extraordinary result?

[YetAnotherOrchidNut]

Originally Posted by Shadeflower

I'm glad you are doing well, most people would just use tap water.

Cough. I resemble that remark. :-)

[DavTom]

thx

---------- Post added at 09:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 PM ----------

Originally Posted by wisdomseeker

Welcome aboard, DavTom!

Sounds like you are successfully applying your aquarium plant knowledge to the challenge of growing orchids. Orchid growing is a great (and rewarding) hobby that will definitely expand the knowledge base.

The difference between ordinary and extraordinary is that little "extra".

thanks

---------- Post added at 09:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:01 PM ----------

Originally Posted by YetAnotherOrchidNut

Nope, you aren't normal. Normal is buying a phal, letting it flower and then throwing it away, or maybe trying to keep it alive, but just letting it die from poor care. What you are doing is about as far from normal as it gets.

The only thing i question is the 24 hour soaks. That sounds excessive to me, I bet if you experimented you would find the difference between 1 hour and 24 is minimal. But id love to hear if i was wrong too. I do long soaks as well, but usually its less than the hours of daylight in the day. :-)

Nice to meet you.

ahahahah ;-)
Nice to meet you too.

Do you use lava rock as medium? If so, I think that it matters a lot to keep them underwater for many hours. Some time ago I saw on youtube a video of a lady weighting (yes with a weighting scale) a big wanda after 1 hour, 6 hours, 12 hours and 24 hours of soaking. That wanda had almost only naked roots...well the increase of weight with hours of soaking started to saturate a bit not earlier than 12 hours and kept going on significantly till 24 hours. So, there is a huge difference between 1 hour and 6 hours and still a significant difference between 6 hours and 12 hours. But if you have other types of medium, then of course it is a completely different story. With lava rock when you remove the water what you get until you water again is almost only moisture with very little availability of nutrients. At least this is what I am supposing and that's why I am doing it that way...So far I have not experimented with shorter soaking periods nor did I weight the pot as I do not have naked roots because of the lava rock.

Dav

---------- Post added at 09:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 PM ----------

Originally Posted by wisdomseeker

Welcome aboard, DavTom!

Sounds like you are successfully applying your aquarium plant knowledge to the challenge of growing orchids. Orchid growing is a great (and rewarding) hobby that will definitely expand the knowledge base.

The difference between ordinary and extraordinary is that little "extra".

thx

[camille1585]

Welcome to Orchidboard Davide!! Sounds like you are doing everything correctly, and more!

I know you are Italian, but I would recommend that your change the country flag in your profile to the Netherlands, country you actually live in. Knowing your geographic location can be very useful when others members have discussions with you or answer questions. The Dutch climate is extremely different to what orchids would experience in Italy!

[DavTom]

Originally Posted by SADE2020

wow love the approach! I think the lava and extra bathtime with the right nutrients is definitely a sign of success. I am into lava rock lately!

The lighting is for an area? or for a shelf? or how is the setup? ... you can share a photo is you'll like :-). You could as well share the brand ( I am always looking for a good lighting)

In regards to humidity, you may want to take into consideration that big flowers plants like Phals; the flowers themselves don't appreciate humidity that high. The plant developed roosts and leaves OK, but flowers tend to die, with humidity that high.

I will soon share a couple of pics of the set-up of the stealth grow room (it is a small cupboard in which I have installed a few things...). But there I am growing since only 1 week the other small orchids in my other post. The Phal were grown outside with the help of a nice but very simple/common lamp (nothing special there). So I do not have yet any results to share for the stealth grow room.

Thanks for the warning about humidity and big flowers. I was suspecting that and I have installed 4 fans in that cupboard.. I think it is oversized...we will see.

Dav

---------- Post added at 09:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 PM ----------

Originally Posted by camille1585

Welcome to Orchidboard Davide!! Sounds like you are doing everything correctly, and more!

I know you are Italian, but I would recommend that your change the country flag in your profile to the Netherlands, country you actually live in. Knowing your geographic location can be very useful when others members have discussions with you or answer questions. The Dutch climate is extremely different to what orchids would experience in Italy!

Thanks. Got it. I will change the flag.

Dav

---------- Post added at 09:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 PM ----------

Originally Posted by wisdomseeker

Welcome aboard, DavTom!

Sounds like you are successfully applying your aquarium plant knowledge to the challenge of growing orchids. Orchid growing is a great (and rewarding) hobby that will definitely expand the knowledge base.

The difference between ordinary and extraordinary is that little "extra".

Thx

[YetAnotherOrchidNut]

The information about the vanda is very interesting. I might try that on my phals and see what happens.

I use bark (with amendments) just because I am not consistent enough to run a setup like you have. The bark and organic media are more forgiving of errors and inconsistencies in my personal experience. I would use the analgy that what I do to a nice comfortable Mercedes with lots of safety features, whereas what you do is more like driving a Ferrari. You go faster, but if you make a mistake it could be bad.. :-) You seem comfortable with that, and that is fine. Would scare the willies out of me. :-)

[DavTom]

Originally Posted by YetAnotherOrchidNut

The information about the vanda is very interesting. I might try that on my phals and see what happens.

I use bark (with amendments) just because I am not consistent enough to run a setup like you have. The bark and organic media are more forgiving of errors and inconsistencies in my personal experience. I would use the analgy that what I do to a nice comfortable Mercedes with lots of safety features, whereas what you do is more like driving a Ferrari. You go faster, but if you make a mistake it could be bad.. :-) You seem comfortable with that, and that is fine. Would scare the willies out of me. :-)

WoW, this is funny. I use a lot your exacts words using a ferrari when I speak with my friends about aquariums with high light setup. High light in an aquarium means exactly what you described. In same cases, however, you do not have alternatives. If you want to have the most beatiful carpeting plants that require a lot of light at the bottom of the aquarium were the light is obviosly
less, you have to run a ferrari or you accept less nice looking carpeting plants. Going back to the orchids and lava rock, my humble opinion is that I am driving here a mopet. With lava rock you cannot over water your orchids and the salt accumulation is also almost impossible. You have of corse to make sure you have enough moisture as, although lava rock absorbs an incredible amount of water, it dries faster- no doubts about that.

Cheers, Dav

[YetAnotherOrchidNut]

Interesting. You said lava rocks cant accumulate salt buildup, but my experience is *steel* can accumulate salt build up, so I am struggling to understand how lava rock doesn't. :-) Honest question. I mean, leca accumulates salt build up, as does stone, why not lavarock?

My point about the ferrari is more about the general hydroculture approach. With materials like bark, and other amendments I /feel/ that I have more room for error. I water with tap water at a ph of about 7.5-8. I sometimes ph adjust down to ~6. But if I dont feel like it that is fine, I dont worry about it much and the plants seem fine. When I did S/H or even A/H (different plants) a minor deviation for optimal could produce really bad results. Likewise with over-fertilizing or any number of other mistakes that can happen when trying to keep a bunch of orchids alive during a busy life.

With your setup you need to be disciplined, you cant forget to water for a week, and mistakes will be punished immediately as there are almost no protective measures in place, minimal media buffering, etc. I have done active hydro growing, and i know what its like, it is fun, but its hard work compared to bark or other more organic methods. I am not dissing your method, i deeply respect those that can make this style work, just explaining why some folks choose other routes.

I find having as many plants as I do a challenge on its own without the stress involved of hyper disciplined growing techniques require. I have about 50 adult plants, and another 30 or so juveniles and babies in various stages and I am the main breadwinner, so building in tolerance for error and inconsistencies, business travel or holidays is important to me. For instance I choose to use a super expensive way to PH adjust by using sodastream water just because it is almost impossible to screw up and over acidify the water in a way that would harm the plants.

Having said all that, one day when I have retired and have the time I want to see how Phals do in a full active hydro mist irrigation scenario. I have a feeling they would grow like gangbusters if done right. Your comments support that theory.

[Shadeflower]

Originally Posted by YetAnotherOrchidNut

Interesting. You said lava rocks cant accumulate salt buildup, but my experience is *steel* can accumulate salt build up, so I am struggling to understand how lava rock doesn't. :-) Honest question. I mean, leca accumulates salt build up, as does stone, why not lavarock?

If I may address this question. I'm sure Dav will be able to elaborate too but this is a very good question which I'd like to comment on.

All materials will accumulate salts if the water that dries on it contains salts.

Metal, lava rock, lecca. They all will.

That is why it is important to only feed what the plants need and no more or it starts accumulating, even on lava rock.

But why does it accummulate on lecca far more than on lava rock?

Well not entirely sure, it does happen, and from my observation the reason it happens more with lecca is because lecca wicks more water.

So lava rock and lecca will dry at the same rate and be dry at roughly the same time. But lava rock will dry uniformly, lecca will dry fast at the surface in contact with air. As the water evaporates on the surface more water is wicked up to the surface and dries again.

This constant drying and wicking sucks salts up to get deposited on the lecca balls.

So lecca will accummulate more salts over time than lava rock because it wicks water to the surface more.

If you use the right amount of fertilizer (not more) then this is not really an issue, white deposits do form but not in an excessive amount to do damage.

[DavTom]

Originally Posted by YetAnotherOrchidNut

Interesting. You said lava rocks cant accumulate salt buildup, but my experience is *steel* can accumulate salt build up, so I am struggling to understand how lava rock doesn't. :-) Honest question. I mean, leca accumulates salt build up, as does stone, why not lavarock?

My point about the ferrari is more about the general hydroculture approach. With materials like bark, and other amendments I /feel/ that I have more room for error. I water with tap water at a ph of about 7.5-8. I sometimes ph adjust down to ~6. But if I dont feel like it that is fine, I dont worry about it much and the plants seem fine. When I did S/H or even A/H (different plants) a minor deviation for optimal could produce really bad results. Likewise with over-fertilizing or any number of other mistakes that can happen when trying to keep a bunch of orchids alive during a busy life.

With your setup you need to be disciplined, you cant forget to water for a week, and mistakes will be punished immediately as there are almost no protective measures in place, minimal media buffering, etc. I have done active hydro growing, and i know what its like, it is fun, but its hard work compared to bark or other more organic methods. I am not dissing your method, i deeply respect those that can make this style work, just explaining why some folks choose other routes.

I find having as many plants as I do a challenge on its own without the stress involved of hyper disciplined growing techniques require. I have about 50 adult plants, and another 30 or so juveniles and babies in various stages and I am the main breadwinner, so building in tolerance for error and inconsistencies, business travel or holidays is important to me. For instance I choose to use a super expensive way to PH adjust by using sodastream water just because it is almost impossible to screw up and over acidify the water in a way that would harm the plants.

Having said all that, one day when I have retired and have the time I want to see how Phals do in a full active hydro mist irrigation scenario. I have a feeling they would grow like gangbusters if done right. Your comments support that theory.

OK, first of all I feel like I have to clarify something here and I have to do it now. I feel honored that the discussion went already to this level with people like you who know far more than I do about orchids and probably about plants in general. I consider myself fairly knowledgeable only for planted aquariums.

Having said that, my humble opinion is the following:
- Lava rock. I assume that there is no significant accumulation of salts because of the following reasons: a) I do not see any visible salt on the lava rock surface when it dries out; not even when I internationally overfertilized the orchids to get some burned roots (I had to know what was the limit!); b) the TDS that I measure in the fertlized solution before I soak the orchid is slightly higher than the one I measure after 24 hours. This means that the orchids have absorbed more nutrients than any leakage from the internal part of the lava rock. One could argues that it will get worse with time as long as the salts are building up internally in the lava rock. Far point, but after one year of watering with fertilzyer every week, I still have the same TDS readings
- PH. You have to know also the KH (alkalinity) of your tap water. PH alone is by far not sufficient. The KH is what opposes to PH change. You may have tap water at a PH of 9 that goes to a PH of 6 with one drop of acid and another tap water that goes from 8.4 to 8.3 with the same drop of acid (I have that tap water with a PH of 8.4 and a KH of 10). In my case the only practical solution is the reverse osmosis. Is it worth it? If you have high PH and high KH for sure in aquariums and I humbly assume with orchids too. The higher the PH and the more the iron (and other elements) precipitate and are no longer available to the roots. Yes, of course there are the chelators. Are they effective? Yes. Are they really effective? Yes, but only to a limited extend (that's my humble opinion, please do not quote me). So, I prefer to solve the problem at the root and remove the salts that cause the high KH upfront. A lot of people do not know, I did not, that a reverse osmosis system for orchids costs 50 Eur and can generate close to distilled water 24/7 for at least 5 years before you need to replace it.
- Making your own fertilizer cocktails. Is it worth it? Only you have time to learn what are the ppm concentration needed, how to mix them and so on. This requires time and effort to understand it, but once you got it right it works like clock-work with little or no effort to implement it in a routine way. I am doing it only because I did it anyway for the aquarium. probably I would not otherwise. Is this a ferrari or a mopet? In lava rock it is a mopet, in other mediums, exepcially if you overfetilise it can become a ferrari. So the key difference here is the lava rock
- If you ask me what it the core of all what I am doing here? I would reply: the lava rock. It creates unique starting conditions that remove a lot of problems. the only draw back is that it retain less moisture - you have to compensate that
- Last but not least, I am really convinced that in all I am doing I am driving a mopet not a ferrari. With only once exception: I cannot forget to soak my orchid every week. I recognize that. (Well, actually you can with some countermeasure that work only temporarily while you are on summer leave as I did, but they are not practical to be implemented as a routine). But removing the risk of over watering, being sure that your orchids get always plenty of air in the root so that you can increase humidity too, at also no salt accumulation is, again in my humble opinion, and immense advantage that I am more than happy to balance with weekly soaking.

Cheers,
Davide

---------- Post added at 01:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:54 AM ----------

The light I used to supplement light to my phals that were grown with "aquarium" approach is this one. It has 4 levels (I never used the level 4 has it produces to much heat that would certainty drastically reduce the life span of the led). I used it at level 2 for 12 hours x day. It gives about 100 PAR ad a distance of 20 cm. https://www.amazon.de/Relassy-Vollsp...568310&sr=8-96

Opss...I cannot attach pictures directly but only copy an URL? This means that I have to have the pictures hosted on a website first otherwise I cannot share them here?

Dav

[YetAnotherOrchidNut]

I think the ultimate question is do you feel your plants are happy and does the way you care for them make you happy. As long as both are true its all good.

Fwiw with your skills you might like to try something much more challenging than a phal, maybe a Dracula or something obscure like that. I think you will enjoy it. Phals are pretty much the easiest orchids to grow.

Also it sounds to me you might really enjoy the challenges of home breeding where everything must be perfect or it's a total fail. The nice thing about orchids is there is always an even more challenging plant than the ones you have already. I have killed two Darwinia and two Den. lamiya learning, and I'm still determined to try again when I get the chance.

Anyway thanks for all your knowledge! Nice to meet you.

---------- Post added at 02:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:22 PM ----------

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