Hybrid lineage traceable?

[smokinjoe52]

> Bluenanta did have the information in a very usable format.

> I wasn't using the GREX search on RHS, so that is cleared up.

I need to do a little research on the definition of:

variety, clone, cultivar, etc.

My current thinking is: The difference between a Onc. Sharry Baby Red Fantasy and an Onc. Sharry Baby Sweet Fragrance, is that they both have the same parents, but a particular grower had a plant that they thought was unique and registered it as specific variety. That plant can now be cloned to retain the desired traits.

I intend to prove myself right or wrong.

Thanks for all the help,

Joe

[silken]

Originally Posted by smokinjoe52

> Bluenanta did have the information in a very usable format.

> I wasn't using the GREX search on RHS, so that is cleared up.

I need to do a little research on the definition of:

variety, clone, cultivar, etc.

My current thinking is: The difference between a Onc. Sharry Baby Red Fantasy and an Onc. Sharry Baby Sweet Fragrance, is that they both have the same parents, but a particular grower had a plant that they thought was unique and registered it as specific variety. That plant can now be cloned to retain the desired traits.

I intend to prove myself right or wrong.

Thanks for all the help,

Joe

Correct. And the proper way to show these cultivar names is: Onc. Sharry Baby 'Red Fantasy' and Onc. Sharry Baby 'Sweet Fragrance'. If you Google orchid nomenclature, or just plant nomenclature you will get some good explanations of how this all works. Here is one:
Orchid nomenclature

[smokinjoe52]

Thanks Silken.

Another valuable resource, and exactly what I wanted.

Joe

[PaphMadMan]

Originally Posted by smokinjoe52

I need to do a little research on the definition of:

variety, clone, cultivar, etc.

My current thinking is: The difference between a Onc. Sharry Baby Red Fantasy and an Onc. Sharry Baby Sweet Fragrance, is that they both have the same parents, but a particular grower had a plant that they thought was unique and registered it as specific variety. That plant can now be cloned to retain the desired traits.

I intend to prove myself right or wrong.

Thanks for all the help,

Joe

A cross (or grex) can be officially registered and get a unique name like Sharry Baby. Every time Onc. Jaime Sutton is crossed with Onc. Honolulu the result is Onc. Sharry Baby. No other hybrid in that genus can go by that name.

All awarded orchids get a cultivar name, but it is not limited to awarded plants, names like 'Red Fantasy' or 'Sweet Fragrance'. Cultivars are not registered, and anyone can give a cultivar name to an individual plant at any time as long as that name is not already in use in that cross or the plant does not already have a cultivar name. Then all divisions, mericlones, keikis etc. of that plant get the same name. In orchids, cultivars can't be propagated by seed.

Though the term is often used incorrectly a clone is one unique individual, grown from seed or starting from a mutation, and all of the genetically identical plants propagated from it by division, mericloning, keikis, etc. In orchids, this means the terms clone and cultivar are interchangeable if a cultivar name has been given.

Variety is often used informally to mean the same thing as cultivar or clone, but that use should be avoided. Variety has a more general meaning in common language and a different meaning in formal botanical naming of naturally occurring species. Using it in any way with hybrids is at best confusing.

[terryros]

I will just second Blue Nanta for getting at the immediate ancestors as well as the species make up of hybrids. Doing this with RHS requires many manual searches. I think that Blue Nanta pulls from the RHS database so it should be complete. It also has a number of photos of species and hybrids that come up with searches. Orchidwiz would have additional information, but as a Mac user, it isn't easily available to me.


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[pipsxlch]

Phal.(violacea var borneo x violacea var borneo 'Pacific Isle' (bellina)

This isn't a hybrid. It is purebred Phal. violacea, further identified as a purebred Phal. violacea var. borneo. One parent is a violacea of Bornean descent that was given a cultivar (individual) name of Pacific Isle to distinguish it from all other Bornean type or variety violaceas. The other parent was not singled out for its own identifier- it is most likely a typical example of the species and variety, and the breeder didn't feel it was worth singling out. The Pacific Isle might have had something a little bit different or better (in the breeder's eyes anyhow, since you don't have a title attached) that merited being singled out.

While plants- hybrids or species- are given cultivar names when awarded to single them out, any plant can be assigned a name by its owner informally. I can take my undistinguished Rhncholaelia digbyana, decide to call it 'Fred', and give you the little start I have off it as Rhy. digbyana 'Fred'. I've done nothing wrong as long as no one else has used that cultivar name on a digbyana. the 'Fred' would be registered if I showed my plant and won a title on it- so it would be Rhy. digbyana 'Fred' HCC/AOS, then. (disclaimer- I don't show, and my plain old digbyana is staying so- no Freds here!) The same with hybrids- I could take my plain old Bc. Theresa Ricci, call it Bc. Theresa Ricci 'Spot', etc.
Plants with cultivar names therefore may have something special about them, or may be average Joes of their type, if they do not have a title attached. Usually (not always!) plants that are mericloned have cultivar names; they usually (again not always) have something special making them worth the bother and expense of mericloning. And mutations can occur during mericloning, perhaps resulting in a new cultivar name on the mutant. Otherwise the cultivar name of the donor travels with the new plants, since theoretically they are as identical to their parent as a physical division would be. (and divisions have been known to mutate also!)

Variety is sort of a subtype within a given species or hybrid- so your violacea is of the Bornean variety to distinguish it from violaceas descended from other locales, say Sumatra. Note that if you took you violacea var. borneo and crossed it with a violacea var. Sumatra, the offspring would be purebred violaceas but outcrosses (I wouldn't call them hybrids, since they are pure in species) between varieties within the species. Sort of like if I took a German shepherd from American pet/show lines and bred her to an Eastern European German shepherd from working/military lines- two very different varieties, but the same breed, and the puppies registerable as such.

Varieties are usually distinguishable breeding types from a given region (such as your borneo) or a population within the species/hybrid with a characteristic easily distinguished from most others of that species/hybrid, such as color (coeruleas, albas etc.) You will sometimes see 'var. tipo' on a species, which means a typical example of that species or like what was used when the species was formally described.