ID for two oncidiums and a mini phal with purple leaves

[astrid]

Why on earth is everyone lecturing on why you shouldn't try to label a NOID in the orchid identification forum?

I did not ask, "Hey, what is everyone's opinion on figuring out IDs?"
I asked, "What do you think this is?"

It is so unhelpful to pop up on the identification forum with some lecture about, "Well you can never really know what it is!"
Yes! You sometimes can! And frankly, I would contact the vendor but in this case I do not know the vendor.

Please stop- I really go nuts when I ask for help IDing a plant and people just prattle on about how a "NOID is a NOID..."

I am also somewhat insulted that it is just assumed that I would label my plants willy-nilly and give them away and so on. I can't ID most of my miltoniopsis orchids (much to my chagrin) but many other oncidium hybrids are commonly sold enough that a positive ID is possible. For example, the phal I have discovered to be Phal Jiaho's Pink Girl, and I 100% believe it.

I can't ID my den kingianum specific hybrid, but I can know it is a den kingianum. However, my colmonara wildcat is common enough that people can know the ID and I have confirmed it fully.

If you all want to make a thread complaining about how people mislabel orchids, please go and make your OWN thread instead of being so unhelpful and counterproductive on mine. I didn't ask your opinion on labeling, I asked your ideas on what something might be.

[katrina]

Originally Posted by astrid

Why on earth is everyone lecturing on why you shouldn't try to label a NOID in the orchid identification forum?

I could be wrong...but I believe the intention of this the ID forum was to help w/identifying group/genus, etc and not necessarily every big box store (or similar) hybrid out there.

Originally Posted by astrid

It is so unhelpful to pop up on the identification forum with some lecture about, "Well you can never really know what it is!"
Yes! You sometimes can!

Well, I'm sorry to tell you this but you couldn't be more wrong. Some species can be ID'd via a pic only but to ID a hybrid via a pic only will never be 100% accurate. I'm sorry...but that IS the way it is.

Originally Posted by astrid

I am also somewhat insulted that it is just assumed that I would label my plants willy-nilly and give them away and so on.

You basically declared it a done deal when you typed you were making a label. What else was anyone expected to take from that?

Originally Posted by astrid

For example, the phal I have discovered to be Phal Jiaho's Pink Girl, and I 100% believe it.

You are entitled to believe anything you wish but that doesn't change the realities of the situation. I don't know the plant...maybe your ID is correct bu maybe it's not. You are not a taxonomist and (despite ad nauseam) a pic ID is not a reliable way to ID an orchid.

Originally Posted by astrid

If you all want to make a thread complaining about how people mislabel orchids, please go and make your OWN thread instead of being so unhelpful and counterproductive on mine. I didn't ask your opinion on labeling, I asked your ideas on what something might be.

I'm sorry that you have been upset by the realities of this situation but I stand by my comment of this being a wholly inaccurate way to get the names of orchids. Especially hybrids.

I also stand by the comment...if having named orchids is important to you then perhaps you should shop vendors that can give you those names. It's easy...just buy plants with tags and IDs already attached to them. It's not complicated nor hard. I think everyone can agree that this would be your best bet for an accurate and correct name.

Look, there are enough innocent mistakes w/tag mix up and all w/in the industry and what you are doing really is only confusing an already sometimes confusing aspect of orchid growing. Why do you think some (like myself) get so annoyed by this? Because too many people are doing it! Have you considered that some of those pics you are basing IDs on might be wrongly ID's via another google search pic-only IDs? Some of those pics have been posted by people doing exactly what you are doing. So, in essence, you very well could be basing an ID on a plant that was wrongly ID via another wrong pic id..that was wrongly id'd by another wrong pic...that was wrongly id's by possibly another wrong id's pic, etc, etc, etc. It happens...more often than I bet many of us could even imagine.

The intention of my first comment/post was to use all of this as a teaching moment regarding the world of orchid nomenclature and the importance of having accurate IDs but I see now that my "prattle" is of little value. I know I've commented on this very subject more than once...hoping by all hope that those doing it might see the bigger picture. There are real issues involved in doing this and I know it probably seems like no big deal but when one takes the time to look at what can happen down the road...well, fact is, it can sometimes end up being a very big deal w/in the hobby.

I'm sorry your feelings got hurt or that you ended up annoyed/irked/upset by the reality of the situation but you need to remember...this is an open forum and when you post something you need to be ready for an opposing view. I am not the only orchid grower w/strong opinions about this type of behavior and I doubt (should you continue doing it) that it'll be the last time you hear these type of comments.

[Orchid Whisperer]

I agree 100 percent with all of the people who are telling you a NOID is a NOID and will remain a NOID.

Being upset with people that tell you that you can't tag your plants based on some ID given through a photo shared online makes no sense. Of course the advice is helpful - it is also correct.

So why have an identification forum? There is a relatively new post where the OP asks, is this a Vanda (a natural genus) or a Mokara (an intergeneric). Someone who grows vandaceous orchids might be able to identify the plant to genus. That type of information can help with cultural requirements. I have a few Phals and a reed stem Epidendrum that are NOIDs and I don't worry that I don't know the precise name. For me, these are good plants to share with friends that are new to orchid growing, or to just add some color to the house.

But you can't really get beyond a "Looks like ____________ " identification. And to tag a plant with an ID, when you don't really have an ID, is not responsible if you ever plan to share the plant with someone else. Sorry, facts are facts.

[silken]

I again agree completely with katrina and Orchid Whisperer. There are a lot of lurkers and beginner orchid growers seeing these posts and even if YOU don't intend to pass plants or divisions off as named hybrids that were purchased as NOID's, it is certainly the impression that it is named, and confirmed, from your comments.

Your example of Comanara Wildcat is the exact reason why this shouldn't be done. That hybrid has so many very different colour combos and colour patterns and there are so many other Oncidium crosses that are similar, that while it very well may be Colm Wildcat, it could easily be many other hybrids also. The Onc. Twinkle and Tsiku Marguerite are another example, of both commonly sold and they could be one or the other.

[Subrosa]

Originally Posted by astrid

Why on earth is everyone lecturing on why you shouldn't try to label a NOID in the orchid identification forum?

I did not ask, "Hey, what is everyone's opinion on figuring out IDs?"
I asked, "What do you think this is?"

It is so unhelpful to pop up on the identification forum with some lecture about, "Well you can never really know what it is!"
Yes! You sometimes can! And frankly, I would contact the vendor but in this case I do not know the vendor.

Please stop- I really go nuts when I ask for help IDing a plant and people just prattle on about how a "NOID is a NOID..."

I am also somewhat insulted that it is just assumed that I would label my plants willy-nilly and give them away and so on. I can't ID most of my miltoniopsis orchids (much to my chagrin) but many other oncidium hybrids are commonly sold enough that a positive ID is possible. For example, the phal I have discovered to be Phal Jiaho's Pink Girl, and I 100% believe it.

I can't ID my den kingianum specific hybrid, but I can know it is a den kingianum. However, my colmonara wildcat is common enough that people can know the ID and I have confirmed it fully.

If you all want to make a thread complaining about how people mislabel orchids, please go and make your OWN thread instead of being so unhelpful and counterproductive on mine. I didn't ask your opinion on labeling, I asked your ideas on what something might be.

Not taking the tag was a bit out of character........

[gnathaniel]

Originally Posted by astrid

I can't ID my den kingianum specific hybrid, but I can know it is a den kingianum.

Astrid, this very well illustrates Katrina's excellent point. You CAN'T and DON'T know that your plant is Dendrobium kingianum because it's NOT, it's a hybrid. When you publicly post images of a plant under the name 'Den. kingianum' despite knowing it's actually an unidentified hybrid, you're wilfully and irresponsibly spreading misinformation that erodes this forum's reliability.

Also, please stop acting snippy and rude whenever someone offers an opinion you don't want to hear. If you post a public thread asking for public feedback, you don't get to control the exact form that feedback takes.

[AnonYMouse]

It's provenance. You either have it or you don't. Creating a tag mid-life doesn't authenticate it.

Naming possible parentage for clues to culture, on the other hand, should be acceptable.

Cheap genetic testing couldn't come soon enough.

[Leafmite]

You could try identifying it through Trader Joe's. First you can ask to speak to the manager and see if he/she can help you. If they cannot, you could ask for the district manager's number. They might tell you the different places that supply their orchids. Then you can ask for that number or look it up online and contact the grower/vendor.

I know it is a pain to try to do a little detective work at the local Trader Joe's but perhaps your interest might actually prompt them to get better orchids or get ones with tags (or keep the tags).
Good luck!

I am sorry but I must agree with the others. I grow herbs. You would be surprised by how many completely unrelated herbs have flowers or even leaves that look very similar or even identical! The 'daisy' flower, for example is pretty common (feverfew and chamomile, just to name two). I think, then, it is no stretch for there to be many Phals, Oncidiums and many others that look identical due to being in the same alliance. I have read that there was a big push for a certain type of Cattleya for the cut flower industry so now there are many white Cattleyas with a yellow center and many lavender ones that look pretty much identical.
If you are still not impressed....
It is no different than being presented with an odorless, clear liquid in an unmarked jug, sitting at the side of a road when you are thirsty. It may look like water but would you really drink it if you were not certain from where it came? If someone told you they thought it was water? Or, would you want at positive ID first, just to be certain?

[Subrosa]

Originally Posted by Leafmite

You could try identifying it through Trader Joe's. First you can ask to speak to the manager and see if he/she can help you. If they cannot, you could ask for the district manager's number. They might tell you the different places that supply their orchids. Then you can ask for that number or look it up online and contact the grower/vendor.

I know it is a pain to try to do a little detective work at the local Trader Joe's but perhaps your interest might actually prompt them to get better orchids or get ones with tags (or keep the tags).
Good luck!

I am sorry but I must agree with the others. I grow herbs. You would be surprised by how many completely unrelated herbs have flowers or even leaves that look very similar or even identical! The 'daisy' flower, for example is pretty common (feverfew and chamomile, just to name two). I think, then, it is no stretch for there to be many Phals, Oncidiums and many others that look identical due to being in the same alliance. I have read that there was a big push for a certain type of Cattleya for the cut flower industry so now there are many white Cattleyas with a yellow center and many lavender ones that look pretty much identical.
If you are still not impressed....
It is no different than being presented with an odorless, clear liquid in an unmarked jug, sitting at the side of a road when you are thirsty. It may look like water but would you really drink it if you were not certain from where it came? If someone told you they thought it was water? Or, would you want at positive ID first, just to be certain?

Indeed! I have a bunch of Fuschia boliviana 'alba' seedlings going, and if I didn't know better my first guess at an id would be basil of some sort.

[Luizacft]

Astrid - your Phal is gorgeous. Love the pink spots!