Which species phal is which? ID help, please!

[GirlGoneWild]

Originally Posted by naoki

Sorry, I didn't mean to make you feel bad about this. But the positive side is that you didn't get the warning letter, and the plants didn't go to the trash bin. Some of the people in the other forum also didn't know about the import rule, and got a letter (with plants confiscated).

Cody is right that it is difficult to tell. You could contact the seller, but you might be happier if you don't. In any case, you can grow them well, and propagate and distribute them. In this way, you are contributing to reduce harvesting pressure! I love the effort by https://lab.troymeyers.com/flasking/home.php These 2 species are not super rare in the US, but some people would appreciate your effort.

Awww, thanks!! No worries about what you said...information is always good!! I knew there were import rules, but I'd thought I was in the clear because the overseas sellers had said that the price of shipping was so high because it included the cost of all the certifications and paperwork.

But this issue of illegally collecting orchids really bugs me. I got way more worked up about it than was probably necessary...LOL...and I ended up searching for any evidence that this seller had been involved in illegal activities. Absolutely NOTHING came up on them. But I did find some great documentation from CITES, and there was quite a bit of information in there about ways you can tell whether an orchid was collected from the wild. Although it's obviously no guarantee, they showed examples of things like insect leaf damage (due to growing outdoors), root damage (due to being detached from their mounts and handled by various parties), and collapsed patches in the leaves due to moisture loss during handling, etc.

I am now fairly reassured because my plants arrived looking picture-perfect. Not one root was damaged...the leaves were plump and had been well-cared-for. They look like they've been grown in a glass bubble. So that gives me a bit more confidence that these were indeed lab grown plants. Also, one of the plants had some styrofoam stuck to the roots in various places, which I think indicates it had been growing in a pot for a while (unless the Chinese have genetically engineered a styrofoam tree...LOL).

Anyway, I now feel much better about my purchase. I am actually just starting to get into propagating orchids...the pod from my very first cross is nearly mature, and it will be sent away for flasking soon. I had hoped to use the Wilsonii and Lobbii for breeding at some point, so if they had been illegally collected, I didn't know what type of problems that might have presented.

But I'm now pretty darn sure these are lab plants. I also went back and looked at the web site again and looked for signs that there was a lab involved. The photos of the plants they sell were taken in a lab-type setting...the plants were shown growing in plastic cups.

So anyway, I think I can breathe a big sigh of relief. Now, if I just knew the actual clonal name of that Lobbii, I'd be THRILLED!!

A big thank-you to everyone who weighed in on this!

[GirlGoneWild]

For anyone who has been following along with this thread, you'll be happy to know I now know which is which!!

In my anxiety about whether these plants had been collected illegally, I went to the seller's web site and did some digging around to look for signs that there was a lab involved, etc. Anyway, they had pics of the plants I bought, and I can clearly tell which is which!!

DRUMROLL PLEASE.....

The one on the left is the Wilsonii. The one on the right is the Lobbii.

Thanks, everybody, for your contributions!!

[naoki]

That's excellent you figured it out. I hope that they will grow well. Some people say that they grow better mounted, but I generally try to avoid mounting (too lazy to water them so frequently, and I don't have a greenhouse). I've seen beautifully grown P. lobbii (supposed to be relatively easy species) in a pot, so it shouldn't be a problem. But for P. wilsonii, I ended up mounting because one person (he is a Phal species super collector) mentioned that exposed roots help them to break out the dormancy (if it happens). But another person (goodgollymissmolly, who grow gorgeous plants) in this forum said that it probably doesn't matter, see messages #14 and 15 of this thread: http://www.orchidboard.com/community...anensis-2.html

As he said, the best thing is to make sure that they don't go dormancy.

With regard to wild collection, it is not necessarily illegal. It's quite complicated, so I'm not sure if my understading is correct or not. Phals are under CITES appendix 2, so my understanding is that wild collected orchids can be exported legally with proper permits (if the originating country allows it). With appendix 1 (e.g. Paphs), I don't think you can export wild collected orchids at all. Also within each country, collection of certain wild plants may or may not be legal. For example, we don't go to jail by digging up dandelions from my property, but it is illagal to dig up dandelions from Yosemite National Park.

[gnathaniel]

Glad you find out the IDs, Jenn! Those are great species and the plants you got look really nice. I hope they grow well for you, and in addition to your hybridizing please consider swapping pollen with others to help propagate the species.

A couple more quick notes on importation (about which I know very little, so anyone else feel free to correct me here):

• I'm 90% (give or take ) sure you also need an Import Permit from USDA prior to importing live plants. These are free and the application isn't too lengthy or complicated; you should be able to fill out and submit it right on the USDA website. Maybe someone else who's done some importing will chime in to confirm or deny this requirement.
• You may want to examine whatever documents the seller provided and maybe do a little research to verify whether or not they seem authentic. Even though the foreign seller provided them (as they're required to), I believe US law can still put the burden of liability on you as the importer to be reasonably sure it's all legit. Authenticity of documents is likely not something you'll be able to verify 100%, but if you haven't already it would be good to look at the documents to make sure a) they're actually in the box (I'd keep a copy for my records, too), and b) that they don't look obviously fake, like written in crayon or something .
• If you begin anything that might be deemed 'commercial activity,' you may want to jump through a few more hoops before importing further since permitting requirements are stricter for commercial actors than private. Not an issue with this import if you haven't begun any kind of commercial operations, and maybe never an issue depending on how you conduct your future plant activities (merely selling a few plants probably doesn't make you a 'commercial nursery'), but probably good to keep in mind.
• NOT trying to scare you, as may have already been mentioned it seems pretty rare that someone gets more than a warning for this stuff, even for importing more/more endangered plants than you have. But particularly when you're posting such info in public, it's probably wise to make sure your ducks are in a row...

[GirlGoneWild]

Originally Posted by gnathaniel

Glad you find out the IDs, Jenn! Those are great species and the plants you got look really nice. I hope they grow well for you, and in addition to your hybridizing please consider swapping pollen with others to help propagate the species.

I would be happy to help propagate the species! That was one of my goals in collecting some of these plants, actually!

I'm doing a fist-pump about the pollen swap idea!! I didn't even know there were "pollen swaps" going on! I'd be all in for that! I was going to do a "selfing" on these in addition to crossing them with other phal species plants (provided I don't kill them before they bloom...LOL), but it's always better to mix up the genetics when continuing propagation of a particular species.

I don't know anything about pollen storage. I have, however, already started collecting tiny plastic air-tight containers to collect pollen from plants I'm hoping to cross...I have one species phal that looks like it might just be setting a bud, so hopefully I'll have SOME pollen to speak of at some point in the near future. But I don't know if the little plastic containers are the right vessels for the pollen. I'll probably need to head over to the "breeding" section for more info on that...

If you begin anything that might be deemed 'commercial activity,' you may want to jump through a few more hoops before importing further since permitting requirements are stricter for commercial actors than private. Not an issue with this import if you haven't begun any kind of commercial operations, and maybe never an issue depending on how you conduct your future plant activities (merely selling a few plants probably doesn't make you a 'commercial nursery'), but probably good to keep in mind.

But particularly when you're posting such info in public, it's probably wise to make sure your ducks are in a row... [/LIST]

Well, honestly that was one of the reasons I was so stressed out when someone mentioned the improper importation of plants... I hope to someday operate a small nursery, and I don't want to go about things the wrong way.

And, like a complete idiot, I already threw away the packaging and paperwork that came with the plants. AAARRGGHHH!!! I was just so excited about them and anxious to get the babies rehydrated that everything else went into the trash bin, which unfortunately has already been emptied and collected by the neighborhood truck. Pbbbbbtttt!!! Well, I'll know not to make THAT mistake again....

And people keep referring to how "public" a venue this is for discussing this...I'm such a newbie...can we just delete this whole thread so my mistake doesn't come back to bite me in the ass 15 years down the line?

And I think I'll just order from the US from now on... this is all too stressful!

[gnathaniel]

I wouldn't sweat it; you imported individual plants of two CITES Appendix II species, neither of which appears to be wild-collected, and you've obviously tried to do things the right way WRT paperwork. USDA and USFWS don't have the resources to go after all the actual bad actors, so I doubt you'd even show up on their radar.

[GirlGoneWild]

Originally Posted by gnathaniel

I wouldn't sweat it; you imported individual plants of two CITES Appendix II species, neither of which appears to be wild-collected, and you've obviously tried to do things the right way WRT paperwork. USDA and USFWS don't have the resources to go after all the actual bad actors, so I doubt you'd even show up on their radar.

Thank you SO MUCH for the reassurance. Commencing operation "chill the heck out."