NOID Oncidium

[TerriF]

It's great to have the parentage of the Odontonia Samurai. Thanks.

[TedM]

@orchidsarefun:

You say:

immediate parents are Aliceara Hani x Onc Shroederianum
According to OrchidWiz this was registered in 2006.

I don't think this cross can be the correct parental combo.

Aliceara is an intergeneric mix that consists of Brassia x Miltonia x Oncidum - no Odontoglossum.

Odontonia, on the other hand, is Odontoglossum x Miltonia - no Brassia, no Oncidium.

Thus, a cross between Aliceara Hani and Onc Shroederianumn cannot produce an Odontonia. That cross would produce another Aliceara.

I think OrchidWiz may have been confused by this orchid:

Odontonia Samurai | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Though it is called by the same name, it is clearly not the same as my orchid. It also looks like it has a more complex parentage than just Odontoglossum and Miltonia. Perhaps it is the cross mentioned above and should have been labeled "Aliceara Samurai?" Who knows? Anyway, it is not an Odontonia Samurai.

And, as far as the 2006 registration is concerned, my specific Odontonia Samurai is at least 20 years old. So, unless someone was very casual about getting their cross registered, that doesn't fit, either.

So, I'm afraid the identity of the parents of the real Odontonia Samurai remains a mystery.

[lepetitmartien]

Originally Posted by TedM

Odontonia Samurai | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

This one is a Colmanara Massai Red.

Here's my Massaï Red 'white'

I have 2 Odontonia Samuraï and it's the same as yours :

[orchidsarefun]

I don't know where the mix-up comes in but the photos of Aliceara Samurai in OrchidWiz are ( to my admittedly untrained eye ) the same as the ones posted here.
I did read somewhere that if a hybrid is not registered within 6 or 7 years, then anyone can register it. Maybe that is what happened....

I can't find any other Samurai Odont Alliance hybrid registered.

See ( confirming ) registration details in RHS below

The International Orchid Register / RHS Gardening

[TerriF]

The photo [Odontonia Samurai | Flickr - Photo Sharing!] doesn't look anything like mine (photo)

I look forward to a confirmed ID. Thanks to all of you.

TerriF

[TedM]

See this link:

Bak. Samurai (Dgmra. Hani x Onc. schroederianum)_2164

The RHS link provided by orchidsarefun says Bakerara is a synonym for the genus name Aliceara. So, could the orchid in the link above also be considered an Aliceara Samurai?

This is really getting confusing!

BTW, @lepetitmartien: beautiful photos!

[lepetitmartien]

Thanks! Just quick pics taken after the buy to show…

Now I'm proud the of second, you see the little samuraï in it well.

I agree, there's something confusing on this bakerara/aliceara hybrid. I wonder. The one on the link looks a lot "like a Miltassia", there's Brassia in there.

Odontonia is Miltonia x Odontoglossum
Miltonidium is Miltonia x Oncidium
Aliceara definition is Brassia x Miltonia x Oncidium
Bakerara definition is Brassia x Miltonia x Odontoglossum

Give or take one or two taxonomist battles, shake, confusion. ^^

My Samuraï was Colmanara, now Odontonia afaik, Miltonidium lurks…
The Aliceara may now be Bakerara depending of the Odontoglossum used.

But in all they are different nothogeni and with a same hybrid name and in the same alliance you get headaches.

Now… This Odontonia Samuraï is not a valid hybrid it's a trade name… No RHS but certainly ® or ©. And we don't have the cross…

And there's around a Miltonidium Samuraï (search for it, it lurk on a German forum).

Now I need an aspirin.

[TedM]

Well, when you come right down to it, I got exactly what I wanted when I started this thread. I have found the name of the orchid - Odontonia Samurai - and I am satisfied. The rest seems to be causing more confusion, not less.

Two final points:

1. The person I cited earlier, the "Executive Secretary of the International Commercial Orchid Growers Organization," has a Ph.D. in horticulture, is a professor at a major US university, and has, in fact, personally developed many intergeneric crosses like the ones we've discussed above. In other words, he is one of those "final authority"-type of guys. If he says the parentage of Odontonia Samurai is unknown, I believe him! Lepetitmartien is correct - Odontonia Samurai is a trade name and the cross is probably hidden so it cannot be commercially copied.

2. Here's my understanding of the intergeneric genuses (genui?):

Odontonia is Miltonia x Odontoglossum
Miltonidium is Miltonia x Oncidium
Aliceara is Brassia x Miltonia x Oncidium
Degarmoara is Brassia x Miltonia x Odontoglossum (not Bakerara)
Bakerara is Brassia x Miltonia x Odontoglossum x Oncidium

I got this from: World Checklist of Selected Plant Families: Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew

As an example, just type "Bakerara" in the search box and hit search. So far, it has worked with every orchid genus and species name I've tried (except Odontonia Samurai !!!).

Now - for the aspirin!