Dendrobium/Oncidium Cross Pollination

[Psyched]

Yes shadec, I am aware of that. That's why I mentioned in my post also my doubt of the crossing between Cattleya and Dendrobium ever happening.

Morphologically speaking, some Dendrobium section (in this case latourea) very closely resemble a member of Cattleya alliance. Even Dendrobium speciosum pseudobulb is very smiliar to those of Schomburgkia's. But that does not mean it is compatible in genetical level.

Crossing between sympodial and monopodial, in this case phal, is very much out of the question.

[Royal]

Let's keep morphology out of this. Ability to breed has everything to do with chromosome count and nothing to do with appearance. (ex. Epiphronitis, or Vandopsis)

Taxonomists have done lots of work since the 19th century. Alliances are a good guide, just look at the lists in the subtext of the Forum alliance section titles. Coryanthes and Stanhopea fall in the same category. The Oncidium alliance is huge, but the Dends land somehwere else.

FYI - A Dendrobium has been crossed with a Bulbophyllum.

[kinknstein]

A Dendro with a Bulbo? That must be an interesting cross!!

[isurus79]

Don't forget that some plants within a genus cannot be crossed. For example, there are some Dendrobiums that can't be crossed with other Dendrobiums! Orchids are tricky critters!

[Psyched]

I'm just going to say: Never say never.

It's true that Alliances is a good guide for hybridizing. But don't let it limit the possibilities.

Phalaenopsis and Vandaceous have long been known to be in different alliance. But hybrids between them have been successfully created: Asconopsis, Renanthopsis not to mention other complex intergenera hybrids comprising between the two alliances.

Jumbo Orchids in Taiwan, a well-known producer of Catasetum and its alliance has successfully created hybrids between Cycnoches and Grammatophyllum (hence Cycnophyllum), Mormodes and Ansellia.

Below is the image of Cycsellia Jumbo Trax (Cyc. Jumbo Dragon X Aslla. gigantea var. nilotica 'Waunakee' AM/AOS)


It's also true what Steve said in the above, Dendrobium genus is very large but crosses between different section can prove to be impossible.

With the advancement of genetics and in chromosomal level will allow the creation of hybrids previously unheard of decades ago. Even though orchids have gone through different evolutionary roads in different continents, they might not be that much different after all in genetic level. Heck, I don't even have formal training in this area so I should say no more.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Okay, I'm going to play devil's advocate and be a total prick about this particular subject, so bear with me.

I am totally not thrilled about inter-alliance breeding. Here's why...

1. I'm not down for any more Coryhopea-like creations. I like weird stuff, but this Coryhopea nonsense is totally offensive to me (I know Coryanthes and Stanhopea are from the same alliance, but man, what were they thinking?!!!). Just like the fugly dog, (no one, I repeat, no one should carry the burden of having to own a dog that reminds you of Night of the Living Dead or Resident Evil). Can you imagine sleeping in bed at night and your zombie dog just jumps on top of you, I don't know about any of y'all, but I'd be scared $h1+le$$. So any inter-alliance creation that would come close to these abominations (in my opinion) is out (look at me I'm saying this as if I ruled the world, what a tard I am)!

and

2. It sounds like it has the potential to make orchid culture maddeningly difficult. As if it wasn't complicated enough already with many, many orchid hobbyists not being aware of the natural habitats and growth habits of many numerous species of orchids, (notice I'm just talking about species here, I haven't even touched on hybrids and intergenerics). Why would anyone do this to themselves and their fellow human beings is beyond me.

If there are any more arguments, I can't think of them at the moment.

For any reason, if any of what I've said sounds unreasonable, then I'm full of it.

Thank you to all those who actually cared to read this.

Grumble. Grumble.

You know what, now that I'm thinking about it...this thread shouldn't really even be taken all that seriously. What the hell am I doing?.

Grumble.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Alrighty, I did find another reason...

All I have to say in sarcasm is, I'd like to thank the person who created (drum roll, please!)...

the Killer Bee.

That's right the un-natural natural affliction of the Americas was brought to us by an unsuspecting scientist who decided to increase the productivity of the European Honey Bee by cross breeding it with the more productive, but more aggressive African Bees.

Bam! What've we got? You guessed it...Killer Bees. The wonderful thing about them is that Killer Bees are very difficult to distinguish from the European Honey Bees for someone who's not trained in telling them apart (even then, it might be difficult).

NICE!!!!!!

I'm down with the saying: Just because we can, doesn't necessarily mean we should go full steam ahead into stupidity.

I really think humanity has shot itself in the foot enough times, and should really take a break from it.

One more thing...what's up with wanting inter-alliance crossing? Why so complicated? Why produce a plant that's so difficult to reproduce at home that in order to that you'd need to turn your house into a full blown serious laboratory? As if producing orchid species, hybrids, and inter-generic hybrids wasn't complicated enough, now there's DNA splicing and whatever the hell it takes to get this thing done? What??? Again, why?

I know some people on the OB have actually expressed their liking to glow-in-the-dark orchids. Personally it weirds me out. But it goes back to the question, why so complicated? It takes DNA from a jellyfish injected into an orchid to get it done. So there...why so complicated?

In these cases, I'd give up the cool factor for good old sensibility, responsibility, and simplicity.

Why's it always gotta be bigger! BETTER!! BADDER!!!????

Okay, now I'm done...grrr...

[Orchidflowerchild]

Originally Posted by isurus79

Don't forget that some plants within a genus cannot be crossed. For example, there are some Dendrobiums that can't be crossed with other Dendrobiums! Orchids are tricky critters!

Differences in chromosomes counts, babes! Most oncidium species are 2n=46, dendrobiums, 38. There are, of course, exceptions within alliances, and often chromosome counts have been used to delineate species or genera.

Nevermind ploidy....

-Cj

[Orchidflowerchild]

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

the Killer Bee.

That's right the un-natural natural affliction

Boy, with a stance like that, i hope you don't have any hybrids lying about...

Best to just get rid of the mudbloods.

As for your question: Sometimes a hybrid is made just to see if if will work. other times, there are specific desires. Coryhopea, for example: Coryanthes have spectacular flowers, but are more finicky, on the whole, than Stanhopeas. Perhaps this was an attempt to encourage hybrid vigour? Also, just because *you* find a flower unattractive, does not mean the hybrid s without merit. Nevermind that this sort of breeding among the stanhopiinae is new stuff, anyway. No way to divine the breeding habits of previously uncombined species without flasking up the seeds, dear.

Don't be so curmudgeonly. ;-P

-Cj

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Originally Posted by Orchidflowerchild

Boy, with a stance like that, i hope you don't have any hybrids lying about...

Best to just get rid of the mudbloods.

As for your question: Sometimes a hybrid is made just to see if if will work. other times, there are specific desires. Coryhopea, for example: Coryanthes have spectacular flowers, but are more finicky, on the whole, than Stanhopeas. Perhaps this was an attempt to encourage hybrid vigour? Also, just because *you* find a flower unattractive, does not mean the hybrid s without merit. Nevermind that this sort of breeding among the stanhopiinae is new stuff, anyway. No way to divine the breeding habits of previously uncombined species without flasking up the seeds, dear.

Don't be so curmudgeonly. ;-P

-Cj

I started out with hybrids and I still own a few. There are some I actually like. The reason I don't own more, is because I think some of them are getting way over the top in aesthetics. I still admire many of the old standbys. Even some of the newer ones I don't think is overly done.

I also understand that some hybrids were bred for aesthetics and/or vigor. In fact without these hybrids I'd probably give up on the hobby. For cryin' out loud I owned Neostylis Lou Sneary, this is "everyNeostylisman's" (sorry being pc with this term just didn't sound good) orchid. Almost every Neostylis lover has it. I even currently own a NOID reed stem Epidendrum my best friend's mom gave to me from 3 yrs ago, and it's still alive and has bloomed multiple times. See I'm not a snob or a bigot after all! (I'm Asian btw, and I realize that there are many different people from many different countries, from different walks of life, of different religious or non-religious practices, and different races and ethnicities here.)

I don't like the irresponsibility factor.

I also don't like overly complicated breeding methods, that's just dumb.

Like I said, if inter-alliance hybrids and glow in the dark orchids were released to the general public for sale, and if I ever wanted to go into the orchid business and provide customers with inter-alliance hybrids and glow in the dark orchids. If I wanted more control over the breeding process and everything else unforeseen, I'd be running a lab that would literally be a full blown genetic laboratory. How lame is that when all I want to do is reproduce plants. Now I gotta also have animal DNA at hand too, just in case someone wants a glow in the dark whatever.

Then there's the chromosome counting, this CAN'T be easy and quick. It sounds tedious and time consuming. So now, I wouldn't just have to understand plant tissue culture, which is hard enough to understand without delving into it, but now I've gotta learn about DNA splicing and complex stuff like chromosome counting??? Half the time I'm reading scientific journals about genetics my head spins.

Get my point? It sounds like it's getting pretty absurd.

Now that was under the context of commercial production. Can you imagine a hobbyist trying to reproduce the plant they love? HOW FREAKIN' DORKY IS THIS?

You might as well forget about work. You might as well forget about family and friends. Because most of your time will be devoted to learning how to involve some complicated measures of genetic engineering to make more of your beloved plant. The trials and errors, the heartbreaks from the mistakes, the meticulous protocols, and everything that comes with this painstaking process is too much!

Speaking from my own personal standpoint, I'm just an entertainer who loves orchids and wants to make more; do I really have to be a jr geneticist too? I mean, my job takes up a lot of my time as well. Do I really need to make life that much more complicated? I'm sure many people on the OB have time consuming and energy draining jobs as well. I mean think about it...

Now the following is not the best argument in the world, cause God only knows what the hell they're thinking because I sure don't. But in my opinion, it appears as if now, they're just doing it to do it. There's no, I'm breeding a beautiful flower to make people happy. It doesn't feel like they're breeding a hybrid to enter into shows. It doesn't even feel as if they were breeding the hybrids for vigor.

You know what it sounds like to me??? That's right - it sounds like: "Wow! We think we've found a way to inter-breed orchid alliances, let's just do it and see what we get!"

What the...

Complex breeding of inter-alliance orchid hybrids using genetic engineering is one thing, but what's next: "Let's make a griffin 'cause we can!" Or how about: "Let's make a hippohumandile! Yay!!!"

What? The Killer Bee wasn't enough of a mistake. Now let humanity create more un-natutural natural blunders that may or may not hurt us, either immediately, in the near distant future, or in the unforeseen future? That sounds like playing Russian Roulette to me. Talk about humanity and science living on the edge!

...The edge of extinction!