Agony & Ecstacy: Phal. Grosbeak 'Chin Yo' - Page 2 - Orchid Board

Orchid Whisperer · #11 06-03-2017, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D_novice

I meant to say fungus or bacteria, not virus. For a bacteria it's slow-moving, but yes others have concurred, it is a bacteria.

I've been giving all my plants 1/4 tspn epsom salts/gallon H20 about 1x/month - though less in winter when I water less and feed less (they are windowsill, less light in winter, particularly this winter in Northern California). I've recently begun using dolomite, which is Ca & Mg, first sprinkled on the the potting mix, now dissolved in water about once every five weeks. I also use ProTekt, which is potassium silicate, the DynaGro guy, who is local, gave a talk to our local OS and claims that Silica is another critical and overlooked mineral that makes plants more resistant to disease, at least to fungal diseases.

By the time I noticed this in this plant, a lot of cutting would have been involved. However, since my approach decidedly didn't work, if it comes up again I'll try your cutting/drying out approach, whisperer, and see if I get a better result.

Although my collection is tiny compared to some, there's an advantage to having another ~120 plants, while one is meeting its tragic ending another is in bloom or bud or putting out new roots or growths, so I can maintain my optimism

You are correct that dolomite contains Ca and Mg, but the solubility is very low. Epsom salts (Mg sulfate) are a better source of Mg. Since you have been using that in the past, I would continue to use it. Calcium can come from Ca sulfate (gypsum, or Plaster of Paris, which are very similar), or from Ca nitrate. I would use the sulfate and the nitrate on different days; used on the same day, you may end up precipitating a sulfate in your growing medium.

Silica is a plant micro-nutrient, but it would be quite unusual to see a deficiency IMO. I don't see a harm in using protekt, but don't see a benefit either (not without some peer-reviewed science indicating that it is helpful and worth providing).

King_of_orchid_growing:) · #12 06-03-2017, 08:37 PM

Silica is indeed a nutrient that plants use as part of their cell wall to guard against diseases, and is scientifically verifiable. There is literature on this.

Silica in Plants: Biological, Biochemical and Chemical Studies | Annals of Botany | Oxford Academic

Too little silica causes problems, as does too much of it. I'm not saying that this was the cause of your plants' demise, but I wanted to clarify the thing about silica as an additive.

If you want to know some of the known functions of magnesium for plants, here is an article you can read. Again, this is a scientific article. The function of magnesium in plants is understood to some degree.

Magnesium transport and function in plants: the tip of the iceberg | SpringerLink

Here's an article about some of calcium's roles in plants:

Calcium in Plants | Annals of Botany | Oxford Academic

Those "soft" leafed green Phals, do not like being misted. If they get misted over a period of time, they develop all sorts of leaf diseases. They like it humid, but they don't do well being misted over a long period of time. Maybe it is because it's like raining on their leaves everyday.

They especially do not like water getting into the crown. It can be a HUGE problem, particularly if they're being grown upright, (which is completely unnatural to many Phals).

Like Peter Lin said, these kinds of Phals usually like it warm. They really don't like it below 65 F - 70 F at night.

Another thing that might help is if they are leaning in the pot, just let them lean. They naturally grow pendulously. Stop trying to prop them back up and grow them upright.

They also like quite a bit of air circulation to the roots. A pot that is designed to have lots of holes or slots is going to be very helpful to your cause.

If you want to learn about the plant's immune system, the following article is what is currently known about it.

Plant immunity: unravelling the complexity of plant responses to biotic stresses | Annals of Botany | Oxford Academic

Orchid Whisperer · #13 06-04-2017, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

Silica is indeed a nutrient that plants use as part of their cell wall to guard against diseases, and is scientifically verifiable. There is literature on this.

Silica in Plants: Biological, Biochemical and Chemical Studies | Annals of Botany | Oxford Academic

Too little silica causes problems, as does too much of it. I'm not saying that this was the cause of your plants' demise, but I wanted to clarify the thing about silica as an additive.

I agree that silica is a plant micro-nutrient. The reason I stated that deficiency would be unusual is that virtually all water supplies (either well water or surface water) are in constant contact with silicate minerals, and that water should be saturated with silica, or close to it. Silica is not only in sand, but is also in silt and clay suspended in river water. Even wells in limestone aquifers should have silica, since limestone often includes sand, silt, clay, and precipitated silica as mineral impurities. Solubility of silica increases a bit at high pH, but is not strongly pH-controlled.

Orchids (at least the epiphytic types) naturally grow in low-silica environments (tree canopy). With well water or surface water (including "city water") as part of the water supply, the water provided should be much higher in silica than what orchids would usually get in nature.

The only situation that I can think of where you could get a silica deficiency is if you are relying totally on rain water or distilled / de-ionized / reverse osmosis water where mineral content has been greatly reduced. Add tap water back in as part of the water supply, and you should have enough silica.

King_of_orchid_growing:) · #14 06-04-2017, 10:50 AM

Silica is quite ubiquitous. I think it's clear how abundant it is with your explanation.

With epiphytes, silica would be considered a micronutrient due to its limited availability to the plant.

With terrestrial or lithophytic orchids, the amount of silica uptake would depend on the plants since silica is virtually present in all terrestrial environments.

I really love the electron micrographs of the silica structures present in plants. It really shows how important silica is to a plant's well being.

Unfortunately, it'll take more searching to look for an article dealing with the uptake of silica in orchids, if there is one.

D_novice · #15 06-04-2017, 02:17 PM

I've started using MSU which has Ca + Mg, highly soluble. Maybe I'll just stick with that, there are plenty of people who swear by it.
I've definitely seen how low the solubility of the dolomitic lime is, there are crystals of it on the benches, at the bottoms of pots, etc. I've seen it recommended for orchids but a more soluble source seems more advisable.

The one plant that is mounted vertically, Ambonosa, i think has less indication of problems compared to the others. A vigorously growing mounted violacea, though, was one of the early ones afflicted with this problem.

It wasn't until I started misting regularly that several of these plants seemed to turn a corner towards thriving, setting buds, not blasting buds.

It may all come down to, I don't have a way to provide the correct/ideal conditions for these in terms of warmth, humidity, etc. I wouldn't be the first person to throw up my hands in defeat on the crucible that is Phalaenopsis.

---------- Post added at 11:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 AM ----------

Dyna-Gro mentions studies on Silica nutrition, but doesn't include citations. At least one of the study subjects was an orchid, Dendrobium nobile.

Silica Pro-Tekt sheet

I don't have the paper handy, but I did find a scientific paper on geologic dust-wind cycles. An enormous amount of dust is constantly circulating in the atmosphere and falls to earth through settling and rainwater. So epiphytic plants would be exposed to silica. Whether they can absorb it is another story, but according to the above link, apparently they can.

Orchid Whisperer · #16 06-04-2017, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

Silica is quite ubiquitous. I think it's clear how abundant it is with your explanation.

With epiphytes, silica would be considered a micronutrient due to its limited availability to the plant.

With terrestrial or lithophytic orchids, the amount of silica uptake would depend on the plants since silica is virtually present in all terrestrial environments.

I really love the electron micrographs of the silica structures present in plants. It really shows how important silica is to a plant's well being.

Unfortunately, it'll take more searching to look for an article dealing with the uptake of silica in orchids, if there is one.

Philip, I thought you might be interested in this: Silicon Fertilization Affects Growth of Hybrid Phalaenopsis Orchid Liners

D_novice · #17 06-04-2017, 08:30 PM

Phal Bellina alba x equestris alba, in bloom now
Is this creeping bacterial infection?
Or, has this always been there and it's incidental and I"m just noticing it because of hypervigilance

Phalaenopsis bellina alba x equestris alba

infection or normal?

should I cut this out?

---------- Post added at 05:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 PM ----------

Fairy Tale Joy, in bloom now

Phalaenopsis Joy Fairy Tale 'Joy'

cut these spots out? or watch and wait

upper leaf, is that normal? lower leaf, is that normal?
Hard to cut this out without harming other parts of plant

---------- Post added at 05:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:25 PM ----------

Phal gigantea

I am inordinately attached to this one. Would love to grow it to blooming size, and bloom it

Phal gigantea

cut out dark spot only?
dark spot and shaded spot?
wait to see what happens to shaded spot on the right?

this looks bad, doesn't it

King_of_orchid_growing:) · #18 06-05-2017, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orchid Whisperer

Philip, I thought you might be interested in this: Silicon Fertilization Affects Growth of Hybrid Phalaenopsis Orchid Liners

Interesting read. It does confirm that there is an optimum dosage and it does provide some evidence that there is also most likely a limit to how much silica can be dosed without adversely affecting the growth of the plant.

Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by D_novice

Phal Bellina alba x equestris alba, in bloom now
Is this creeping bacterial infection?
Or, has this always been there and it's incidental and I"m just noticing it because of hypervigilance

Phalaenopsis bellina alba x equestris alba

infection or normal?

should I cut this out?

---------- Post added at 05:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 PM ----------

Fairy Tale Joy, in bloom now

Phalaenopsis Joy Fairy Tale 'Joy'

cut these spots out? or watch and wait

upper leaf, is that normal? lower leaf, is that normal?
Hard to cut this out without harming other parts of plant

---------- Post added at 05:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:25 PM ----------

Phal gigantea

I am inordinately attached to this one. Would love to grow it to blooming size, and bloom it

Phal gigantea

cut out dark spot only?
dark spot and shaded spot?
wait to see what happens to shaded spot on the right?

this looks bad, doesn't it

I don't think those spots are of a serious concern at the moment. If they continue to grow, and you start seeing bruised/watery patches, then it will be of serious concern.

You'd be surprised by the temperature of an indoors growing area. Do you have a thermometer where you grow your plants? This should give you a good idea of what the temperature in the growing area truly is. Do not go by how you feel. Your senses can trick you.

Note: In many of my older posts I keep telling people this. This is a piece of advice I don't think I'll ever discard. It has withstood the test of time regarding knowing what your grow room's temperature truly is. Your body will get accustomed to your environment. You may not be able to accurately tell how warm or cool the grow room actually is by just feeling it.

Humidity is a little bit easier to feel, but in order to quantify for the purposes of understanding your growing environment and control, it is best to get a meter that measures for relative humidity. Again, you might be surprised by what the relative humidity of your grow room truly is.

If humidity is an issue, you don't have to "give up". There are many methods for increasing the humidity. One of them is to get a humidifier or mister. Keep in mind that this is only 1 solution to your potential problem.

By the way, if your info is correct, you live in Marin County, CA. You probably live in a city that is along the coast somewhere up around the Bay Area. In fact, according to some of the maps I've seen, you probably live on a peninsula, and are therefore surrounded on three sides by water. Why would you believe that humidity would be such a struggle for you? According to www.weather.com, the relative humidity in Marin County right now at 10:50 pm PST is 93% - 95%!

https://weather.com/weather/today/l/...p=f&par=google

The temperature is 48 F outdoors right now as of 6/4/2017, 10:50 pm PST.

It's no wonder misting your Phals caused that much damage.

If there's a piece of advice I would repeat, it is, don't mist your Phals anymore. It will create more problems than good. And I highly recommend you measure the temperature and relative humidity in that grow room of yours.

Forget about those additives, get back to the basics and fix your growing environment. If the growing environment does not suit the orchids, additives won't matter much.

Also, bud blast is not necessarily solely a humidity problem. It can be, but it is not solely relegated to being a humidity issue. Bud blast can happen for a number of reasons. I'll name off a few other causes:

1. The plant was disturbed. Such as when the plant was repotted, where roots can get shifted around or damaged to some degree or another.

2. Issues with temperature. The plant may have unknowingly been grown in an environment where the temperature does not best support the development of the buds/flowers. Temperature may be too high or too low.

3. The plant is not receiving enough moisture. Under watering.

4. The plant is getting too much moisture. Over watering.

5. Predatory insects such as aphids or mealies damaging the buds.

King_of_orchid_growing:) · #19 06-05-2017, 09:31 AM

It is 6:30 am PST as I check the Weather.com website for the humidity and temperature in Marin County. The website measured the outdoors temperature at 49 F and 94% RH as of 6:21 am PST from Point Reyes Station, CA.

This is also another suggestion, you don't have to take this piece of advice if you don't want to. The stakes on the Phal gigantea to keep it upright, I think it's best to remove them and let it lean over, it naturally grows pendulously in the wild, it does not grow upright. If the pot is tipping over just put the functional pot inside a larger and heavier pot.

I don't know if the following plants were cultivated or not, but it may not be, and could be actual wild specimens:

Flickr: Page Not Found

Flickr: Page Not Found

Here are a couple of photos that are wild for sure:

Flickr: Page Not Found

Flickr: Page Not Found

These links are to photos from other people's Flickr accounts. They are not mine.

D_novice · #20 06-05-2017, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

It is 6:30 am PST as I check the Weather.com website for the humidity and temperature in Marin County. The website measured the outdoors temperature at 49 F and 94% RH as of 6:21 am PST from Point Reyes Station, CA.

Yes, Marin has microclimates. Point Reyes has the coldest dampest climate in the county (well, it and Bolinas). Where I live, about 25 miles inland, can be 30 degrees hotter and dry as a bone when the coast is socked in in cold fog. It's like Santa Monica versus Ontario in Southern California, but across a smaller area.

I did have a humidifier in there, I guess I'll put it back and use that instead of misting and see how that goes. It's a fairly big room but if the humidifier is right there with the plants that area stays humid.

The gigantea just got repotted, so the stakes are to keep it from wiggling in its pot. Definitely I like the idea of letting them grow at any angle; I know some people only mount their Phals. The bellinaxequestris also just got repotted but is a larger plant and didn't need staking to be stable in its pot.

I use cheap little humidity meters (shaped like buttons), made for reptile terrariums. They probably aren't perfect but having moved them around, I know they work.

The bud blasting is probably a result of cold in my case.