Yungho Princess Gelb x Dragon Tree Eagle (red)

[FairyInTheFlowers]

I guess I should mention that the guidlines I listed above are my take on what is a novelty, and those lines aren't always finite, and can change considerable depending on what angle you're looking at this at. In the case of novelties always being diploid, this isn't always the case, as some people have treated certain hybrids to aquire tetraploid novelties, but for the most part your average novelty is diploid. In an essence, you can say that a novelty is anything that doesn't contain a species from subgenus Phalaenopsis in its immediate background, but that can also be hazy. Because there is such a gap in the breeding history between the common diploid hybrids and the tetraploid hybrids, that is usually where I draw the line between novelty and complex. For the most part, the tetraploid hybrids are the big pinks, purples, whites, harlequins, stripes, and miniatures (the highly line bred ones); those are the hybrids that are naturally tetraploid as a result of the time decades ago were line-bred standards began to naturally convert themselves to tetraploids. The diploid rule for novelties isn't always fixed either, and Brother Glory and Joy Spring Tina are examples of this. They aren't triploids, but due to the Natasha side in both of them, are probably just above diploid. The reason for this can be found in their geneology, way back at Star of Rio, which is Bataan x lueddemanniana. Bataan is where the problem is, as it is amabilis x aphrodite. There is a chance that either both of these or one of them were tetraploid, which caused major issues to get passed up the line all the way to Natasha. It really is a wonder that the breeders of those days got this thing to breed. Despite all of this, there are still several ways you can define a novelty hybrid from a genetic perspective:

1.) Hybrids that contain species only from subgenus Polychilos.
2.) Hybrids that don't contain species from subgenus Phalaenopsis.
3.) Hybrids that do not contain any of the extensively line-bred, naturally tetraploid species.

Using physical characteristics will be even harder, but I'll give your common definitions:

1.) Small, waxy flowers, usually with fragrance.
2.) Evergreen spikes that put out reduced amount of blooms over a long period of time.
3.) Bright, colourful flowers in shades of yellow, red, or purple, with various spots and patterns possible.

Physical characteristics as defined by that all conflict with what I would define as novelty, as many of the complex-standards have waxy flowers, with all various types of colours and patterns. I'm going to make a second post after this with the geneology of a complex-standard, and then compare that to the geneology of a novelty, and I'll try to futher explain what I mean with that.

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Okay, so here is the complete geneology of Tying Shin Golden Rose that I myself completed. In the first line is the hybrid and its parents, and then after the space, you have the grandparents, and then another space, and then the great-grandparents, etc. One thing to note is that I do not trace the lineage of a hybrid that appears twice, otherwise this would be triple the size. An example would be Doris, which appears many times, but I only give its parents once after its first appearance, and then any time after that I do not repeat what its parents were. And for reference, here is a picture I pulled from the web of the May 2010 coverpage of Orchids for an idea of what this hybrid is.


Tying Shin Golden Rose= Sogo Lawrence x Tying Shin Golden Apple

Sogo Lawrence= Brother Peterstar x Brother Sara Gold
Tying Shin Golden Apple= Brother Precious Stones x Brother Sara Gold

Brother Peterstar= Sara Lee x Brother Stage
Brother Sara Gold= Sara Lee x Taipei Gold
Brother Precious Stones= Brother Fancy x Brother Purple

Sara Lee= Princess Lorraine x amboinensis
Brother Stage= Taipei Gold x Golden Amboin
Taipei Gold= Gladys Read x venosa
Brother Fancy= Brother Grape x Brother Peacock
Brother Purple= Golden Peoker x Brother Glamour

Princess Lorraine= Lady Ruby x Princess Kaiulani
Golden Amboin= Golden Sands x amboinensis
Gladys Read= Jaunita x Grace Palm
Brother Grape= Paifang's Queen x Lung Ching's Grape
Brother Peacock= Paifang's Queen x Golden Peoker
Golden Peoker= Misty Green x Liu Tuen-Shen
Brother Glamour= Paifang's Queen x Hualien Glamour

Lady Ruby= Ruby Zada x Midlip
Princess Kaiulani= violacea x amboinensis
Golden Sands= Fenton Davis Avant x lueddemanniana
Jaunita= Chief Tucker x Grace Palm
Grace Palm= Doris x Winged Victory
Paifang's Queen= Mount Kaala x lueddemanniana
Lung Ching's Grape= Barbara Moler x George Vasquez
Misty Green= Barbara Moler x Bamboo Baby
Liu Tuen-Shen= gigantea x Golden Sands
Hualien Glamour= Liu Tuen-Shen x Tainan's Golden Stars

Ruby Zada= Zada x Ruby Lips
Midlip= Ruby Lips x Elwyn Middleton
Fenton Davis Avant= Chieftain x Doctor Henry O. Eversole
Cheif Tucker= Chieftain x Thomas Tucker
Doris= Elisabethae x Katherine Siegwart
Winged Victory= Elisabethae x La Canada
Mount Kaala= Doreen x Elinor Shaffer
Barbara Moler= Donnie Brandt x Spica
George Vasquez= violacea x Luedde-violacea
Bamboo Baby= Honey Dew x amboinensis
Tainan's Golden Stars= Golden Sands x George Vasquez

Zada= San Songer x Doris
Ruby Lips= Roselle x Doris
Elwyn Middleton= Ruby Lips x Goleta
Chieftain= Doris x La Canada
Doctor Henry O. Eversole= Altadena x Winged Victory
Thomas Tucker= Doris x Karen
Elisabethae= amabilis x rimestadiana
Katherine Siegwart= amabilis x Gilles Gratiot
La Canada= Gilles Gratiot x Jeanne d'Arc
Doreen= Barbara Kirch x San Marino
Elinor Shaffer= Juanita x Doris
Donnie Brandt= Big Chief x Susan Merkel
Spica= fasciata x lueddemanniana
Luedde-violacea= lueddemanniana x violacea
Honey Dew= Moon Monarch x Sunbeam

San Songer= Rêve Rose x Marmouset
Roselle= Elisabethae x equestris
Goleta= Doris x Margaret Bean
Altadena= La Canada x Psyché
Karen= Doris x Katherine Siegwart
Gilles Gratiot= aphrodite x rimestadiana
Jeanne d'Arc= Gilles Gratiot x rimestadiana
Barbara Kirch= Jane L. Kingsbury x Monique
San Marino= Gilles Gratiot x Katherine Siegwart
Big Chief= Chieftain x Louise Georgianna
Susan Merkel= Chieftain x Palm Beach
Moon Monarch= Moonglow x Cast Iron Monarch
Sunbeam= Gigi x Sunrise

Rêve Rose= Alger x schilleriana
Marmouset= Ninon x schilleriana
Margaret Bean= Doris x Altadena
Psyché= Gilles Gratiot x Perle Blanche
Jane L. Kingsbury= amabilis x Elisabethae
Monique= Gilles Gratiot x schilleriana
Louise Georgianna= Doris x Venustus
Palm Beach= Doris x Cast Iron Monarch
Moonglow= Springtime x sumatrana
Cast Iron Monarch= Louise Georgianna x Doris
Gigi= Pink Sunset x Diamond Head
Sunrise= Lively Suzan x Roselle

Alger= aphrodite x sanderiana
Ninon= Alger x Grand Condé
Perle Blanche= Ariadne x Rothschildiana
Venustus= Elisabethae x Gilles Gratiot
Springtime= Summer Cloud x Doris
Pink Sunset= Rêve Rose x Pamela
Diamond Head= Monique x Doris
Lively Suzan= Bataan x stuartiana

Grand Condé= sanderiana x schilleriana
Ariadne= aphrodite x stuartiana
Rothschildiana= amabilis x schilleriana
Summer Cloud= Elisabethae x Mont Blanc
Pamela= Elisabethae x Fontainebleau
Bataan= amabilis x aphrodite

Mont Blanc= Elisabethae x Jeanne d'Arc
Fontainebleau= schilleriana x Wiganiae

Wiganiae= schilleriana x stuartiana

Ok, as you can see, this is a VERY long geneology with many species in its background, many of them being species from subgenus Polychilos. However, if you follow the lines that do end in novelty species, they are quite short, and the other portion of the geneology are hybrids that compose solely of standard species. Now I'm not quite sure where in the lines the standard species/hybrids turned into tetraploids, and where or what hybrids involving the novelty species went from triploid to tetraploid, but I'm sure the last two or three generations are solid tetraploids. Next I'm going to post geneology of Ben's hybrid posted in this thread, and you'll definitely see the difference in the ancestry.

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Now, here is Ben's hybrid, which superfically looks similar to Tying Shin Golden Rose, but its geneology will tell you quite differently.

(unregistered)= Yungho Princess Gelb x Dragon Tree Eagle

Yungho Princess Gelb= Yungho Gelbliambo x Princess Kaiulani
Dragon Tree Eagle= Penang Girl x Black Eagle

Yungho Gelbliambo= Gelblieber x amboinensis
Princess Kaiulani= violacea x amboinensis
Penang Girl= violacea x venosa
Black Eagle= Coral Nosa x George Vasquez

Gelblieber= amboinensis x micholitzii
Coral Nosa= Coral Isles x venosa
George Vasquez= violacea x Luedde-violacea

Coral Isles= Princess Kaiulani x lueddemanniana
Luedde-violacea= lueddemanniana x violacea

This is obviously much shorter, and composed thoroughly of species from subgenus Polychilos, a true novelty hybrid. If you have any futher questions, I'll try to clear it up for you!

[Call_Me_Bob]

Originally Posted by Ben Belton

Imported and purchased from Big Leaf Orchids in 2007. No Fragrance. Grows like molasses in winter.

Love it! What are you gonna cross it with?!?!?

Its a shame it isn't fragrant!

Originally Posted by james mickelso

Thanks!! Mine might be the same. Noid is all I know it by.

Nice find there James!

[Ben Belton]

Originally Posted by Call_Me_Bob

Its a shame it isn't fragrant!

I smelled it the other morning and it had a slight fragrance. I need to try again sometime. I wasn't enough to really matter though.

[FairyInTheFlowers]

The colour is fantastic, nonetheless! It would be neat to cross this with something like equestris!

[Ben Belton]

Originally Posted by TheBlazingAugust

The colour is fantastic, nonetheless! It would be neat to cross this with something like equestris!

Was going to put Tying Shin Fly Eagle on it, but another opportunity as presented itself.

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Originally Posted by Ben Belton

Was going to put Tying Shin Fly Eagle on it, but another opportunity as presented itself.

Is that oppurtunity my suggestion, or something far better? It would be nice to see this on a Kuntrarti Rarashati 'Copperstate'!

[Ben Belton]

Originally Posted by TheBlazingAugust

Is that oppurtunity my suggestion, or something far better? It would be nice to see this on a Kuntrarti Rarashati 'Copperstate'!

Something different.

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Originally Posted by Ben Belton

Something different.

Regardless of what you do, it's bound to be amazing!