Yungho Princess Gelb x Dragon Tree Eagle (red)

[FairyInTheFlowers]

I can guarantee you that these are not similar plants. Ben's is of novelty origin while James's is of complex standard origins.

[NatalieS]

Originally Posted by TheBlazingAugust

Agreed. Seeing that yours is a NoID, its most definitely a complex hybrid. Ben's is a select novelty hybrid coming from some excellent breeding lines.

Cody, Ben's post says he purchased his cross in 2007. Since that cross has likely been around for at least 5 years it's not impossible that it could have been traded on or sold on by someone who originally purchased it from Big Leaf. It's also not impossible that it could have lost its tag either. If you don't know where the plant came from originally, you could have something just as special without realising it.

Just something to consider.

Perhaps you can explain what the differences are between plants of novelty origin and plants of complex standard origins? I would be interested to know since I was under the assumption that any plant that had a number of hybrid crosses in its background was a complex hybrid.

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Originally Posted by NatalieS

Cody, Ben's post says he purchased his cross in 2007. Since that cross has likely been around for at least 5 years it's not impossible that it could have been traded on or sold on by someone who originally purchased it from Big Leaf. It's also not impossible that it could have lost its tag either. If you don't know where the plant came from originally, you could have something just as special without realising it.

Just something to consider.

Perhaps you can explain what the differences are between plants of novelty origin and plants of complex standard origins? I would be interested to know since I was under the assumption that any plant that had a number of hybrid crosses in its background was a complex hybrid.

There is a large difference between novelty and complex crosses when you consider the Phalaenopsis world. Novelty hybrids are those that are composed mostly of species within the subgenus Polychilos. These plants usually have smaller, thicker flowers in smaller amounts, plants that you wouldn't find mass produced and in home-improvement stores like James's plant probably came from. Standards are the large, dinner plate hybrids which are composed mainly of species from the subgenus Phalaenopsis. Nowadays, you have the complex-standards, which have some novelty hybrids far in their background, which has enabled the introduction of some interesting colours similar to novelties. Also, the complex-standard hybrids are usually about 15 or more generations away from their species parents, while novelties are usually about 5-7 generations away, and have a lot more species in their immediate background.

[james mickelso]

I just noticed that. Yes mine are more rounded. And not quite as flat. And yes I wish I still had it as it was a very reliable bloomer. One inflorescence after another. And very long lasting.

[Ben Belton]

James, Whatever it is, I think it's nice. The color is awesome.

I'm with Cody on this one. It looks like typical tetraploid breeding like Phal HP Norton or some or the Tying Shin Cupids rather than what mine is. I've attached a pic of Tying Shin Goden City for reference.

[james mickelso]

Thanks. That does look alot like mine except for the lip which on mine is very blue. Also this is somewhat rumply looking where mine was pretty smooth. But this is pretty close especially the roundness of the petals and sepals. Thanks. I'll look into this and see if I can come closer.

[Ben Belton]

Oh I wasn't proposing that this was what you have. I was just showing what I think is similar breeding as opposed to novelty breeding.

[NatalieS]

Originally Posted by james mickelso

I just noticed that. Yes mine are more rounded. And not quite as flat. And yes I wish I still had it as it was a very reliable bloomer. One inflorescence after another. And very long lasting.

James, your photo reminded me very much of this:

http://www.orchidboard.com/community...pper-star.html

Camille has one of these too but her pics have disappeared (probably in the process of moving her shared photos).

@ Cody - thanks for the additional information. It made me go off and google novelty phals and I came across this:

Big Leaf Orchid forum • View topic - What Exactly is a Novelty Phalaenopsis...

James did say that his plant's flowers were 2-2.5 inches and that they were long lasting. It's also red and since it has no tag, there's no way to know if it has amboinensis or violacea in its background as Peter Lin describes above.

Anyway, I am just making the point that just because a plant has lost its tag and is now a NOID doesn't mean it couldn't have good breeding. It doesn't necessarily mean it came from a home depot or supermarket either (although you can find named orchids there too). If it was that easy to identify complex hybrids us orchid growers wouldn't be so concerned about holding onto tags, or insisting on calling untagged orchids NOIDs.

Sorry for hijacking your thread Ben. I find genetics fascinating and I couldn't pass up the discussion!

[FairyInTheFlowers]

I also like genetics and breeding, so I have definitely done a lot of reading over at Big Leaf Orchids , and its amazing how much a person learns.

As I might have said, due to advanced modern breeding, some novelties (subgenus Polychilos) were introduced into the standard (subgenus Phalaenopsis) breeding lines. This produced the 'complex' crosses. Another major distinction between the novelties and todays standards and complex-standards is that unless they were treated, novelty species and hybrids are always diploid, and the standards and complex-standards are always tetraploid unless someone bred one with a diploid novelty. Long ago when the standard species were being line bred, natural tetraploids occurred, and the whole standard line soon became tetraploid. In addition, some breeders (probably unknowingly) bred diploid species with the tetraploid standards, creating lots of triploids that didn't breed. However, there were a few special cases of those colourful triploids being bred back to tetraploids that made a few viable tetraploids, and from then on there were certain tetraploid lines that had some colourful novelties in the background. That is why some of the complex-standards do look like novelties--they have some of those hybrids that introduced the novelties way back. However, they are different from true novelties in that they are most likely tetraploid and the novelty species that are in their ancestry appear about 6-8 generations back, with the other part of their ancestry being old standards that go back 14 or so generations. I've actually traced the parents of Tying Shin Golden City, and that's exactly what I saw. True novelties really boil down to anything that is diploid and doesn't contain any of the tetraploid standards or complex-standards.

Now, considering James's plant and this aforementioned definition of what a novelty hybrid is, his is without a doubt a complex-standard. True novelty hybrids are just that, hybrids that appeal to the hobbyists market, which is why you would never see them mass-marketed and sold in the grocery store. The large tetraploids with their better presentation and higher flower count are the hybrids that have always been cloned and mass-marketed.

[NatalieS]

Hmmmm.... maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place, but to get an idea of what are considered novelties I visited Big Leaf's online store. Am I right in saying the plants listed under the novelty section would be the novelties you are referring to?

If so, then I am truly confused because straight away the two plants listed which I researched are not diploid. The joy spring tina 'anaconda' is not pollen fertile and so is triploid. Also, brother glory 'la flora' has a parent in common with joy spring tina 'anaconda', so is also not likely to be diploid.

Something else that makes ploidy very speculative is that natural tetraploid orchid species do occur spontaneously in nature and cultivation - although very rarely. It does mean though that the species in the background of a plant might not have been diploid.



Too much to contemplate on a Friday evening me thinks. I will go back to my wine instead.