Still No Success With Phals - Page 2 - Orchid Board

Cerey · #11 10-06-2012, 09:35 PM

Thank you everyone for your input!
Just yesterday I bought another orchid at the supermarket. I couldn't resist, it looks a lot like phal. amabilis or aphrodite.
It was in a decorative pot and looked really nice. But upon further inspection I found that it was growing in a tiny plastic pot stuffed with moss, which was placed inside the decorative pot and then more moss was packed on the sides. The roots were growing like crazy into all the moss, but I broke a lot when i tried taking out the plastic pot.
I put new moss and left the "aerial" roots as they were. We'll see how this one likes my home!

NYCorchidman · #12 10-06-2012, 11:04 PM

I buy inexpensive phals from grocery stores or big box stores if I see ones I like, and have never killed one. They all do really well (grow and flower) and I live in a dry apartment in a big city (air is probably not so great lol).

You mentioned you kill your phals within two months of purchase whether you repot them or not.
As someone pointed out already, going from moss to bark is not a good idea while the other way around can actually boost the plant vigor. It's just too much of change. Phals are used to high moisture and all of sudden, roots dry out like crazy in bark mix.

Best thing I would recommend is to leave them in what they came in, which is usually moss. I don't know why but often, the moss is really tightly packed in.

Watering is the most important part in this setting.
Do not water copiouly because then moss will retain way too much water for way too long and you will loose your plant to root rot in no time like you do.

Lift the pot and get used to the weight of it when the moss is slightly wet and completely dry.

Each time the pot is very light meaing the moss is nearly all dry, then carefully add little bit of water so the moss is just moistened.
Even if the top of the moss look dry, don't be fooled. it is most likely still moist inside unless it's been over a week since you last watered. If you love to water your plants, then try misting instead of frequent watering.
Go by the pot weight and it is probably the easiest and the surest way to tell when it's time to water orchids planted in moss.

If you really want to repot, wait until flowers are gone and new roots (not necessarily brand new, but seeing the new root tip growing is also a good time) start to grow. then gently take the plant out of the pot, take out the moss, then use moss but do not tightly pack, but loosely pack. if the moss look fresh and clean, use the same one but make sure not to tightly pack it in. You can also add some other mix, but don't go from moss to bark as you will shock the plant too much.

Also, you mentioned how you tend to break roots while trying to get the plant out of the plastic pot.
That is the main thing I see behind your root rot issue. You want to repot all the phals you get, and in the meantime you damage their roots.
Fungal infection finds its way to the wound on roots and you keep watering and watering in super crazy tightly packed moss with not enough air.
Root begins to rot and very soon, the plant is a goner before you know it!

Auger · #13 10-15-2012, 09:44 PM

Have you tried a mud mix yet? I'm an indoor grower and had the same problems before. I used sphag, bark, a sphag and bark mix. So I decided to do an experiment I bought some cheap seedlings and compots from a vendor with a bad rep on OB. If they died it didn't matter, and put them in different mixes and the mud mix worked the best. I used OFE seedling mix 2, which is peat moss, fine bark, and aerolite. And I'm experimenting with a peat, med bark, aerolite, and hydroton mix for larger seedlings. You can also replace coconut coir for peat moss.

Carpe Diem · #14 10-15-2012, 11:35 PM

Cerey, I'm a beginner, windowsill grower and also buy Supermarket Phal's when something catches my eye. I currently have 4 happy, healthy Supermarket Phal's.
I've killed about 5 or 6, but that was BOb (Before Orchidboard)

As soon as I get the Phal. home I get the bark mix and soak it overnight with a drop of KLN added. Then I get the plant out of the pot, remove all of the sphagnum and wash the roots under running water. After that any mushy/hollow roots are removed, followed by another root rinse. I repot in clear plastic pots so I can see the roots, which helps knowing when to water. With this method I have not lost another Phal. and I am always amazed at how well they are doing after the repot. No wilted/dropped flowers, no wrinkled leaves, no sulking. This is what works for me.
Don't give up, it's trial and error, but you'll find a way to grow happy Phal's. Good luck.

NYCorchidman · #15 10-16-2012, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auger

Have you tried a mud mix yet? I'm an indoor grower and had the same problems before. I used sphag, bark, a sphag and bark mix. So I decided to do an experiment I bought some cheap seedlings and compots from a vendor with a bad rep on OB. If they died it didn't matter, and put them in different mixes and the mud mix worked the best. I used OFE seedling mix 2, which is peat moss, fine bark, and aerolite. And I'm experimenting with a peat, med bark, aerolite, and hydroton mix for larger seedlings. You can also replace coconut coir for peat moss.

I have heard about the mix and how it works wonder for plants. I thought peat moss was too acidic for orchids. but I guess it doesn't matter after all? pH influence on fertilizer uptake and all else that goes with low pH I mean.
I'm really tempted to try. one day.

RosieC · #16 10-16-2012, 10:28 AM

Just a thought, but I think if they are dying within 2 months then the damage was done before you got them not after.

Let me tell you my story of these... (I think I've got the numbers right)...

a. I've bought 25 phals in bark and I still have 23 of them (92%), one died a couple of years after purchase of a black necrosis, the other was died after a failed experiment.

b. I've bought (or been given) about 10 phals in tight packed moss in tiny polythene pots and only 2 are still alive (20%). All the dead ones died within 2-3 months of root rot. The ones that hung on longest were almost dead most of that time.

This is a massive difference in success rate and I think relates to how well the supermarkets they were bought from were able to look after them. The problem is that the way the supermarkets care for them the ones in moss have roots deprived of oxygen for a long time. They look OK but go downhill within a few weeks or so whatever you try. You say you have a seedling that has done well. Was that bought in the same sort of shop you get the others or was it from more of a specialist? It might have had better care before you got it, giving it more of a chance for you

Like you I tried all sorts of care when I got them, leaving them in the moss, switching them to bark, pulling out some of the moss to loosen it and allow more air to the roots, I tried more water, less water... all to no avail, they rotted and the process could be seen from very early on in their time with me.

So what worked?

What worked on the first that survived was I think two fold. First I bought it when it had only just come into the shop. It had had less time for the care in the shop to affect it. Second I put it in lecca (but not S/H) then watered frequently (every other day) so that like in moss the roots were kept moist, but unlike the moss they had air. I've heard that S/H or frequently watered lecca is an easier transition from moss than moss to bark would be. For me my temperatures don't suit S/H and often with transition to S/H leads to root rot anyway (which is why you transition as new roots grow).

This one's roots survived that way, although I think they were better in the first place than the others.

The second that survived I tried the same... but the roots just died off in the same way as all the others. But them miracle... 4 new FAT roots started, 2 into the lecca and two into the air. It has two tiny (fully grown) new leaves this summer, those leaves are small due to the root loss, but those roots are fat and happy in the lecca. Now... I watered with seaweed extract a couple of times before those roots appeared... did it have an affect? ... I don't know but several others showed a flush of roots around the same time having had the same treatment.

So a long post, but what I really am trying to say, is that if they are dying that quickly it is likely not your fault and it will always be tricky saving them... so don't blame yourself. However if I have any advise for success, it's first buy them when fresh in the shop, second use a medium which can keep them moist but airy, second try seaweed extract. I can't quantify my success with that but I really think it helped and others here have found the same.

Carpe Diem · #17 10-16-2012, 01:14 PM

Rosie, I think you are on to something! My 4 happy Phal's were all bought at ALDI, on a Wednesday. They advertise when they get a shipment of Phal's and their ads go in effect on Wednesday. Sooo, I've gone on Wed's "just to take a look".

Their Phal's are planted in a clear vented plastic pot, but then are put in a very tight fitting, cheap plastic "decorative" pot and the whole thing is packaged in a plastic sleeve.
Like you, I don't do S/H because of temperatures, but mine go in bark right away.
Perhaps the secret to success is to buy the grocery store plants the same day they come off the delivery truck, or very soon after.

NYCorchidman · #18 10-16-2012, 01:31 PM

I agree with everything Rosie says here except one thing. Two months are more than enough to do significant damage.
If plants die within a few days of purchase without your sunburning or freezing them to death, then, they probably were already in bad shape.

If you buy a phal that's potted in tight moss and keep the moss too wet, which many people do whether they realize or not, then it's just a matter of a few days that root rot start to set in and the plant is a goner very very very fast!

Now, phals bought at some big box stores or grocery stores, yes, it's best to buy right when they are shipped.
As Rosie points out, plants are not very well kept at such stores and it's too dark and overall environment is just not right for phals. So if you happen to buy phals that have been sitting in such places for quite sometime, then yeah, the plants are already stressed out and may die, but you could still very well help recharge the plants with proper care.

Ray · #19 10-16-2012, 10:03 PM

As I cannot know they details of your conditions, let me throw this out:

HEAT.

Phals are hot growers that tolerate our household conditions.

Evaporative cooling from the medium can chill the roots. Bad, bad, bad - if too extreme.

King_of_orchid_growing:) · #20 10-16-2012, 10:22 PM

Cerey, I think you'd be a much happier person trying out Phal species such as:

Phal lindenii
Phal philippinensis
Phal schilleriana
Phal stuartiana

and the natural hybrid: Phal x leucorrhoda

I recommend a change of the source you get your orchids from and the type of Phals you tend to get. There are far easier to grow Phals than those hybrids you find at the store.

Even a species like Phal cornu-cervi wouldn't give you half the amount of grief you're getting from those store bought hybrids.

And yes, Phals in general are warm growers, (although some species like it cooler than others). As a genus in general, they don't like air conditioned rooms that stay around 70 F for the entire day for long stretches of days.

Most of them love temperatures in the low to mid 90's F during the day, with a drop down to 70 F at night during the warm season. During the cooler season, they can have their temperature dropped down to the mid 80's during the day, and around the low to mid 60's F during the night. These temperature ranges are for the most part fairly uncomfortable for most people to handle inside a house.

The species that can be grown cooler, don't like to be in an air conditioned setting as well, but they can tolerate having day temperatures in the 80's F and night temperatures in the mid 50's F better.

Moderate to high humidity of approximately 60% - 80% is greatly appreciated.

I also generally don't like having to grow Phals in full moss, as well. I don't like how the moss dries out unevenly and tends to stay wet for longer periods of time than the Phals like.

A potting media that stays too wet for far too long is the equivalent of suffocating your orchid's root system.

And if you've been trying to "feel" the temperature around you and the humidity around you, this COMMON ORCHID GROWING BAD HABIT will be your greatest downfall. Your body will trick you into believing things that is not really true (there is scientific and/or medical evidence for this phenomena - it is called sensory adaptation). You may feel like it is 90 F, but it may really be 78 F. You may feel like it is 75% humidity, when it is really 50%. I highly recommend the purchase of some good meters to help you determine what your growing parameters REALLY are.

What I have given you here is the basic run down for the basics of growing Phals, NOT tricks. You can utilize all the tricks in the world, but they still won't help you grow a Phal if you don't have the basic fundamentals down.

I also recommend reading the sticky, http://www.orchidboard.com/community...ends-here.html from the very beginning.