Anyone used these LED lights?

[katrina]

I'm planning an (another!) expansion for the orchids. I've been growing cacti/succulents in an upstairs room and I need to take over some of the space for the orchids.

I'm thinking of using some of the LEDs for this space. There is HO T5's for the cacti so it will have some normal light in the area...meaning, I don't think the purple glow will be too much of a problem. Plus, it's in an upstairs spare room so it's not like it's in the main living area. BUT...I don't know if these will be good enough for high light catts. The plants slated for moving to this space are my winter drier growing and much higher light catts...such as the rupics, walkeriana, anceps-types, etc.

Have anyone used these or know if they would be good enough for my needs?

https://www.amazon.com/InaRock-Wavel...trum+LED+bulbs

Or these -
https://www.amazon.com/Miracle-60476...trum+LED+bulbs

Any ideas/insights/info would be greatly appreciated. Not having used anything like this before, I'm nervous about buying the wrong thing and then setting these plants back over the coming months. Thanks in advance.

[Leafmite]

A few members of my OS are growing exclusively under LED's but I do not know much about what is good and what isn't. Wayne Roberts has been experimenting with them and might be able to advise you if you call him.

I have been looking at them on Amazon, too, but I just do not know enough about them to purchase yet. Good luck with your new set up!

[stonedragonfarms]

I grow and flower cattleya under LEDs; most of my plants are under reef rated LEDs (for saltwater aquariums); they throw off very little heat, are super energy efficient and last a long time. If you look through the threads here you'll see others who are also growing under similar conditions.


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[stonedragonfarms]

Originally Posted by stonedragonfarms

I grow and flower cattleya under LEDs; most of my plants are under reef rated LEDs (for saltwater aquariums); they throw off very little heat, are super energy efficient and last a long time. If you look through the threads here you'll see others who are also growing under similar conditions.


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These are both flowering now under LEDs; I've not grown any standards catts under them, but that's more due to space in my grow area than anything else.


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[katrina]

Thanks for the input, guys.

I guess my biggest concern is that I know/understand so little about this kind of light but I have read that there are dramatic differences in the functionality of some over others, when it comes to growing lights. I'm used to using FCs as my baseline and w/these...I don't have that info.

I'm most worried I'll buy something that isn't strong enough for these very high light plants. I've used some other LEDs that ended up being good enough for low/medium light plants but some of my higher light stuff didn't do as well under them.

Should I just be looking at the wattage? I've seen other LEDs that list "lumens" but I know next to nothing about that aspect and neither of these even list that factor.

I appreciate the input but I still feel really lost. I could/should just stick w/what I know but I'd like to lower my usage costs and, hopefully, to get something that doesn't need to be switched out as often as the T5's. And, yes, less heat output would be a bonus...especially during the transition months when I'm running both the lights AND the a/c. I've seen the LEDs on OL's website and if I have to spend $100 for a bulb I will, but I'd sure like to do this on less. Based on my measurements, I'm probably going to need at least 3 bulbs with a decent spread in coverage.

The first link shows coverage area and distance so I feel like that might be a better bulb. The 2nd link doesn't give any of that info...I'm not even sure what the light looks like but based on the description, it might be a white LED. ??


Leaf - trying to reach Wayne on the phone can sometimes be difficult but I might give him a call. He's supposed to be at our OS as the speaker in October...too bad he's not coming in Sept. I'm going to have to make up my mind about what I'm going to do w/in the next couple of weeks...historically, I usually have to make the big move by the 2nd or 3rd week of Sept and I want to have everything in place before then.

Thanks guys!

Anyone else w/input/advice?

[Ray]

Some LEDs are tremendously overpriced for what you get.

First, think true - not "equivalent" - wattage. The output of different chips varies, but if you have some handle on the true wattage of the T5HO bulbs, something similar in LEDs is what you're looking for.

Red/blue can work well, but well-made white lamps do too. I have a "seedling nursery" in my basement under red/blue, but the plants in my living areas are under white, either my 13W lamps (phals, mostly) or my 36W ones for the higher-light plants.

You also need to consider the distance from the lamps to the plants, and the "spread" of the light from the lamp.

[naoki]

Katrina, are you using them under shelves (i.e. not much vertical space)? If so, linear bulbs are probably better deal.

The variation is in efficiency, functionality isn't so different (as long as you give enough light, it works). If you get cheap ones, you'll pay more in 1-2 years for electricity. I think you have extensive grow area, so it makes sense to pay attention to efficiency.

Because cheap ones may be giving 80lm/W, while current top line can give 190lm/W, wattage doesn't tell you much. If you are comparing white light, lumen is better indicator than wattage.

Generally, I haven't see efficient bulbs in PAR38 or BR30 form factor (except Philips bulbs which Ray carries, and a couple others). But linear T8 LED can have moderate efficiency (>110lm/W). TESlights have one of the most efficient T8 LED bulbs (around 190lm/W), which is close to the purpose-built DIY LED grow light. But minimum order is 72 bulbs or so (about $20 per bulb).

If you like flood light type, Walmart brand ("Great Value" brand) had the best efficiency and price (of commonly available bulbs) when I checked a couple months ago.

If you have a head room, and want to cover a wide area (e.g. 4'x4'), this one from Timber is the best deal in long term (for pre-build ones): 200 WATT CREE CXB3590 (4) COB KIT + MEANWELL HLG POWER SUPPLY FREE SHIPPING - Timber Grow Lights

[katrina]

Originally Posted by Ray

Some LEDs are tremendously overpriced for what you get.

First, think true - not "equivalent" - wattage. The output of different chips varies, but if you have some handle on the true wattage of the T5HO bulbs, something similar in LEDs is what you're looking for.

Red/blue can work well, but well-made white lamps do too. I have a "seedling nursery" in my basement under red/blue, but the plants in my living areas are under white, either my 13W lamps (phals, mostly) or my 36W ones for the higher-light plants.

You also need to consider the distance from the lamps to the plants, and the "spread" of the light from the lamp.

So, if I'm understanding this correctly...my T5s are 54 watt bulbs and I have 4 tubes in the units over my high light catts (well, 4 being the minimum some are under 6 and 8 tubes) but the min being 4 x54 = 216 watts. So, on the min side...I would need the 200+ watts of LED in the same area? And that would have to be actual wattage? Meaning the 65 watt bulb is an equivalent wattage and the actual being 9.5 (or something like that) so I would need 21 of those bulbs? Am I understanding this? Or, better yet, just a 200 watt bulb but that means those bulbs in the first link would be insufficient for my needs?

Originally Posted by naoki

Katrina, are you using them under shelves (i.e. not much vertical space)? If so, linear bulbs are probably better deal.

The variation is in efficiency, functionality isn't so different (as long as you give enough light, it works). If you get cheap ones, you'll pay more in 1-2 years for electricity. I think you have extensive grow area, so it makes sense to pay attention to efficiency.

Because cheap ones may be giving 80lm/W, while current top line can give 190lm/W, wattage doesn't tell you much. If you are comparing white light, lumen is better indicator than wattage.

Generally, I haven't see efficient bulbs in PAR38 or BR30 form factor (except Philips bulbs which Ray carries, and a couple others). But linear T8 LED can have moderate efficiency (>110lm/W). TESlights have one of the most efficient T8 LED bulbs (around 190lm/W), which is close to the purpose-built DIY LED grow light. But minimum order is 72 bulbs or so (about $20 per bulb).

If you like flood light type, Walmart brand ("Great Value" brand) had the best efficiency and price (of commonly available bulbs) when I checked a couple months ago.

If you have a head room, and want to cover a wide area (e.g. 4'x4'), this one from Timber is the best deal in long term (for pre-build ones): 200 WATT CREE CXB3590 (4) COB KIT + MEANWELL HLG POWER SUPPLY FREE SHIPPING - Timber Grow Lights

I am using shelves but the upstairs area will have vertical space as well. I currently have a 6 bulb HO T5 unit up there but I can move that to the shelf area and put the LEDs above the vertical area.

I was hoping to keep the initial cost down as well as the running costs but, if I'm understanding your response, I really won't get both of those factors in any of these bulbs and/or any other inexpensive LED. Is that right?

I definitely don't want to buy 72 bulbs so that one is out.

Is the Timber bulb white or purple cast? I can't tell. Do you know how long that particular one would last if I were running it 12hrs/day for about 8 months out of each year? With the set up, I could arrange things so that I only need one...maybe 2 at most. It's a good deal more than I was planning on spending but if it will last a long time and give me the light I need over that entire time, it might be worth considering.

I don't shop at walmart...do they have the higher wattage Value brands? A quick Google search only shows up to 60 watt equivalent and (going back to Ray's comment, if I understand) I guess I would need a bunch of those to do the job I need. ??

Kind of feeling like I might be better off sticking w/what I know w/the HO T5's and just waiting until I win the lottery and can buy the really good and really expensive LEDs. At least I know I've had success w/the T5's.

I usually consider myself to be a pretty smart cookie (most of the time) but when it comes to the technical side of the lighting issue...I feel like a total idiot.

Everyone - thanks so much for your help in all of this.

[naoki]

Originally Posted by katrina

So, if I'm understanding this correctly...my T5s are 54 watt bulbs and I have 4 tubes in the units over my high light catts (well, 4 being the minimum some are under 6 and 8 tubes) but the min being 4 x54 = 216 watts. So, on the min side...I would need the 200+ watts of LED in the same area? And that would have to be actual wattage? Meaning the 65 watt bulb is an equivalent wattage and the actual being 9.5 (or something like that) so I would need 21 of those bulbs? Am I understanding this? Or, better yet, just a 200 watt bulb but that means those bulbs in the first link would be insufficient for my needs?[

Katrina, actually, it is easier to look at the lumen output. This lumen based calculation doesn't work if you are thinking of red/blue light (and the first link doesn't provide any spec., so I'm assuming that it is a bogus product). The MiracleLED you linked is for white 5000K (they seem to have other color, too). T5HO 54W is about 5000lm, so 4 bulbs are about 20000 lm. But this is just the initial output (output decays over time with fluorescent light), and quite a bit of light is lost due to reflection, so let's say 16000 lumen (this is just a guess). The MiracleLED gives 990lm, so you'll need about 16 bulbs. But there is some sketchy description in Amazon, so I'm not sure if it can really provide 990lm out of 9.5W (104lm/W), which is too good to be true for BR30 type. Indeed, if you check LED Lighting Facts database, the best BR30 is 99lm/W. Not all products are tested by Lighting Facts, but I have a feeling this MiracleLED might be a bit fishy in their specs.

Originally Posted by katrina

I was hoping to keep the initial cost down as well as the running costs but, if I'm understanding your response, I really won't get both of those factors in any of these bulbs and/or any other inexpensive LED. Is that right?

Yes, with LEDs, there is an unavoidable trade-off because of their physical property. To get high efficiency, you have to use many diodes driven at low wattage (expensive). To make cheap fixture, they use smaller number of diodes driven at high wattage. When LEDs are driven harder, efficiency drops. The sweet spot depends on the cost of electricity. Our region has high cost of electricity ($0.20838/kWh), so for me, it becomes cheaper to use more expensive 150lm/W fixture over 100lm/W fixture within 1-2 years.

But if your electricity is cheap, it may be better to get whatever cheap stuff, and replace it in 1-2 years. The technology is progressing quickly.

Originally Posted by katrina

Is the Timber bulb white or purple cast? I can't tell. Do you know how long that particular one would last if I were running it 12hrs/day for about 8 months out of each year? With the set up, I could arrange things so that I only need one...maybe 2 at most. It's a good deal more than I was planning on spending but if it will last a long time and give me the light I need over that entire time, it might be worth considering.

It is white. Currently, white LEDs have an advantage in performance/cost even for plants over red/blue. The LED lasts for a very long time. The Timber kit is driving the LED very softly to get the high efficiency, so this soft-driving further contributes to the longevity. I'm guessing that it will easily last 5 years, but by that time, there will probably be much better ones, though.

Now, this kit (4x CXB3590) will produce about 32000 lumen (in reality, quite a bit more than 6 bulbs of 54W T5HO). You can place 2 of these in 1 area and 2 of these in another nearby area etc. But you do have to run 4 units simultaneously (1 driver is driving the 4 units). If you need less light, you should use the built-in dimmer. I haven't done the math, but I think with this high quality driver, you'll get a higher overall efficiency if you drive each softer (i.e. use dimmer). Also, you'll get more even coverage if you use more units.

This is basically same as what I (and many others) build as DIY projects (I use it for a 4'x4' grow tent). With just the materials, I pay around $300, so this pre-built one is a fairly good deal ($100 extra for the assembly etc).

Originally Posted by katrina

I don't shop at walmart...do they have the higher wattage Value brands? A quick Google search only shows up to 60 watt equivalent and (going back to Ray's comment, if I understand) I guess I would need a bunch of those to do the job I need. ??

This one is 1050 lumen from 11W (95.5lm/W) for about $10. You are correct, you'll need quite a few to get the similar light as 4x 54W T5HO.

Originally Posted by katrina

Kind of feeling like I might be better off sticking w/what I know w/the HO T5's and just waiting until I win the lottery and can buy the really good and really expensive LEDs. At least I know I've had success w/the T5's.

I usually consider myself to be a pretty smart cookie (most of the time) but when it comes to the technical side of the lighting issue...I feel like a total idiot.

With cheap LEDs, there is only a small advantage in efficiency over T8 and T5HO. Also there will be LED replacement bulbs for T5HO. At this moment, T5HO replacement LEDs aren't as efficient as T8 LEDs, but it will probably catch up in a couple years.

You are right, there are quite a lot of technical sides with LEDs. Especially it become complex if you try to get the maximum out of it (at the cheapest overall cost), but plants aren't that picky. They seem to be happy as long as they get enough, though!

[katrina]

Thanks naoki! Your response does give me a little better handle on the info. I think my best bet is going to be just sticking w/the T5s, for now. The timbers look like what I would need but I don't want to pay out that kind of cash right now.

I appreciate you taking the time to go into all the details...it was very helpful.