Lighting an orchid closet - fluorescent or LED? Otherwise?

[DavidCampen]

It does bother me somewhat that there are people who insist they don't work because of (... fill in the blank...). They are the same people that said fluorescents didn't work, I think.

People say that they don't work? That seems to be a rather silly statement. Who would say that? 100 watts of white LED should work about as well as 100 watts of white linear fluorescent. I have never paid much attention to CFL but I would expect them to be less efficient than linear fluorescent.

I use both LED (a 16 X 10-watt ,red white and blue light bar of my own design) and T5 linear fluorescents as supplemental lighting. I use LED when I want a focusable light source so that I can mount the source a long distance from the plants and I use the linear fluorescent when the lamps can be placed very close to the plants because of the much lower capital cost of linear fluorescent.

[fishmommy]

I also bought one of these to try, since it was so cheap.
Amazon.com: LEDwholesalers 2501WH White 225 LED 13.8 Watt Square Grow Light Panel 110 Volt: Patio, Lawn & Garden
It is giving me 1500 fc at 1 foot and only 80 at 2 ft.

[DavidCampen]

Originally Posted by fishmommy

I also bought one of these to try, since it was so cheap.
Amazon.com: LEDwholesalers 2501WH White 225 LED 13.8 Watt Square Grow Light Panel 110 Volt: Patio, Lawn & Garden
It is giving me 1500 fc at 1 foot and only 80 at 2 ft.

This is why I built my own LED light strip. The commercial ones do not exploit the principal advantage of LED over fluorescent - that it is relatively a point source and thus can be tightly focused. With the commercial LED light strips the light is less focused than even a linear fluorescent and diffuses very rapidly.

[littlefrog]

Always seems there is somebody out there who refuses to change... People still buy 1000W HPS systems. Some people still drive horses to work...

I use a similar strategy. I use fluorescent light over some benches, partly because I didn't have access to the linear LEDs that I have now. Some areas don't work well with the light patterns available with a lot of commercial LED systems (round areas, square areas... I have a long thin area, so use a tube). One downside is that those T5 tubes aren't cheap, and need replacing yearly. In theory the LEDs last a lot longer. So, it is really the same calculation people make when they invest (or don't invest) in energy efficient vehicles for example. Is the upfront premium worth the down-stream benefit? Depends on many factors, and not all of those are cost. So, as an example (retail pricing is approximate, I don't buy retail...).

1 single 4' t-5 strip fluorescent (without reflector) : $30. Add in a reflector for $20 (or build your own, which is what I do, for less). Anyway, about $50.

1 single 4' HO LED light - $100. Need a transformer, unfortunately. Let's say another $50 (can run several strips though). Total, about $150

For the first couple years, the T-5 wins. Need to buy a new bulb every year (yes you do... stretch it to 18 months if you must, but you will be a far happier person if you replace them yearly). Hydrofarm's price for a 4' 54W bulb is $30. Seriously? $30? That is insane. Anyway. After two years you've replaced the bulb once (getting you up to $80). After 5 years you've replaced the bulb 4 times (getting you up to $170). So, payback time is about 4 years? This calculation doesn't take into account energy costs, my HO strips run at about 35W I think, so ~60% of the electricity. If you are cooling your growing area, you have to figure that in too.

Anyway, that should give you some ideas as to the 'payback' times and relative investments. Wait a couple years, and the prices of the LEDs will drop again (they've already gone down substantially, even as the quality has improved dramatically, over the last two or three years).

If you are growing cool orchids like pleurothallids, it might not matter what the LEDs cost, the difference in heat is so substantial it is worth any premium.

Now that I have access to a high quality 'T5 like' LED strip (seriously, these are so much better than most of what is out there, it is ridiculous - there is a lot of junk to be had in LED strips), I will be replacing a lot of my T5s as the bulbs need replacing. The directionality is a problem, I will need to do two LED strips for every one fluorescent strip to get even coverage. A trade-off, as usual. Actually I'll probably do one blue, one red, and one white strip per every 4' of bench.

Originally Posted by DavidCampen

People say that they don't work? That seems to be a rather silly statement. Who would say that? 100 watts of white LED should work about as well as 100 watts of white linear fluorescent. I have never paid much attention to CFL but I would expect them to be less efficient than linear fluorescent.

I use both LED (a 16 X 10-watt ,red white and blue light bar of my own design) and T5 linear fluorescents as supplemental lighting. I use LED when I want a focusable light source so that I can mount the source a long distance from the plants and I use the linear fluorescent when the lamps can be placed very close to the plants because of the much lower capital cost of linear fluorescent.

[fishmommy]

littlefrog: could you tell me what to look out for in a 'junk' LED unit?
I am trying to learn as much as I can before converting my aquariums and terrariums. May even be a potential to replace my HPS someday...

[littlefrog]

Oh, another advantage of LEDs is they don't shatter into a million pieces when you look at them funny... Or get cold water on a hot tube. Ever had a fluorescent tube shatter on you? Mercury, lord knows what else in them, even if the glass wasn't lethal in itself.

Minor advantage, but when you've had a few near death experiences (use them for 25 years, *&$@ happens...), it can be comforting to know there won't be flying glass coming at your eyes...

[DavidCampen]

1 single 4' t-5 strip fluorescent (without reflector) : $30. Add in a reflector for $20 (or build your own, which is what I do, for less). Anyway, about $50.

1 single 4' HO LED light - $100. Need a transformer, unfortunately. Let's say another $50 (can run several strips though). Total, about $150

For the first couple years, the T-5 wins. Need to buy a new bulb every year (yes you do... stretch it to 18 months if you must, but you will be a far happier person if you replace them yearly). Hydrofarm's price for a 4' 54W bulb is $30. Seriously? $30? That is insane. Anyway.

Really, you pay $30 for a 4 ft. 54W T5 bulb? Yes, that is insane. I buy them for about $10 - $15. That makes break even about 6 - 10 years.

[littlefrog]

Originally Posted by fishmommy

littlefrog: could you tell me what to look out for in a 'junk' LED unit?
I am trying to learn as much as I can before converting my aquariums and terrariums. May even be a potential to replace my HPS someday...

I think it is always caveat emptor... If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. I see a lot of wildly exaggerated claims out there. If it claims to last forever and cut your utility bill by 90%, it is probably not going to do that.

Some of it is truly apples and oranges. How do you compare a red/blue LED system to a white fluorescent? It isn't possible I think. Short of actually using both of them. You will never see enough documentation on actual wavelengths or lumen outputs. Even if you could understand it (i've tried, and it doesn't always make sense even to me), they don't provide it. One reason is that LED manufacturers guard their secrets (any reasonably competent person with a soldering iron and good fine motor control can build LEDs and copy a design). We can do a better job of comparing white to white (the last several posts have been trying to do that), but even that is tricky as you have probably deduced.

There are so many systems out there I can't keep up... In general, I think if it is really cheap for purchase, you can probably assume it is cheaply made. Might be some good cheap stuff out there, but I'd be really careful. There is a counter tendency out there, some manufacturers make their units insanely expensive, presumably so you think they are insanely good. They might be better, almost certainly better than the cheapo units, but are they really worth 2, 3, or 5x the price of a middle of the range product? I can't afford to find out.

I'm pretty comfortable with the systems I use, comfortable enough to become a reseller of them. Last thing I need is for people to start blaming me for bad product. But even those systems have ups and downs. I've been having some serious trouble with one of my workhorse units (I use well over 20 of them), I've had to send a lot of them back for repairs. But, to the company's credit, they fix them for free and have even taken my suggestions for an upgrade to the product. I'm getting some new upgraded units this week (for free!) to test out, I have high hopes. I've spent a lot of time with another LED designer, and he's taken a lot of suggestions about how to make better plant lights and put them into practice, so that is another product I'm confident in. But that is just two vendors. There are dozens if not more people making these things out there, I just can't test them all.

Anyway, for what I've tested, I'm comfortable and can give recommendations. For example, I'm _extremely_ happy with the 90W UFO light I use. I can't tell you how many orchids I've bloomed under them (I have five running), and it is solid. I know how to use it (distances from plants, coverage area, etc). But another product, even a 90W UFO, from another vendor... Well, who knows.

[littlefrog]

Originally Posted by DavidCampen

Really, you pay $30 for a 4 ft. 54W T5 bulb? Yes, that is insane. I buy them for about $10 - $15. That makes break even about 6 - 10 years.

I don't pay that, I was just looking for a price on the internet... But, somebody is paying that! Probably people who are growing far more profitable crops than orchids.

[DavidCampen]

Originally Posted by littlefrog

I don't pay that, I was just looking for a price on the internet...

But you were willing to use that insane number to skew your economic argument.

I just looked for a price on the internet and see numbers of $7 - $12 for 54W t5:
T5 HO Lamps - Fluorescent T5 HO Lamps - Lamps - Discount Specialty Farm, Greenhouse & Garden Supply Store: Horticulture Source