Inter-section crosses in Dendrobium - Orchid Board

calvin_orchidL · #1 04-11-2008, 01:56 PM

Hey everyone!

Just thought I'd throw this out there

Anyone know of primary hybrids between species in different sections of the dendrobium genus? Is it possible? I thought I saw a biggibum (Phalaenanthe) x latouria type but I can't remember where. Any data describing what kind of crosses are possible and which are not? For instance, would you ever get sucessful progeny between latouria and formosae types? Has anyone ever done it?

Any info would be appreciated

FYI I found a good reference detailing all the different sections of dendrobium: Phil's Orchid World Dendrobiums

There are some repetitions (ie formosae and nigrohirsute are listed as seperate sections even though they are the same) but it's a cool list

isurus79 · #2 04-11-2008, 02:53 PM

This actually reminds me of a conversation I had not too long ago with one of the owners of H&R nurseries. I was wondering if I would be able to cross a caronnii (Spatulate Dend) with an atroviolaceum or johnsoniae (both Latrouriates) and he thought that since they were so far apart with regards to the Genus, this cross would probably not work. He quickly said that I should try though, because it would be an interesting cross!! That particular cross did not take, however. A few weeks later I crossed Dend Nestor (parishii x anosmum, section Dendrobium) with the johnsoniae as the seed parent. Ive got the beginnings of a seedpod so far!! I hope it takes. I would love to see, however, some kind of list describing which sections can and can not be crossed.

shakkai · #3 04-11-2008, 03:06 PM

If I remember correctly, some of the newer Australian hybrids are crosses between natives like kingianum or tetragonum (Dendrocoryne Dendrobiums) and warm growing section Phalaenanthe Latourea & Spatulata Dendrobium types.

Google on EquaCool, TropiCool, or Hot-Cold Australian dendrobiums.

There is a very good article about them listed here:
Woolf Orchidculture NEWSLETTERS

Andrew · #4 04-14-2008, 10:24 PM

Shakkai mentioned the Hot-Colds, which are quite common. I've also seen Dendrocoryne intergenerics with Dockrillia and Cadetia.

calvin_orchidL · #5 06-21-2009, 01:02 AM

Sorry to be pulling up an old thread, but I'm very happy to say I saw my first photo of an inter-sectional cross! I happened to visit hawaiiansunshine's flickr page and saw a magnificent dendrobium: Dend Rising Star, which is a mix of latouria, phalaenanthe and spatulata!!! (atroviolaceum x johnsoniae ) x (phalaenopsis x gouldii)

Fascinating!! I recently ordered Dendrobium frank thrall (atroviolaceum x johnsoniae) x biggibbum so I'm super excited to see how this turns out!! (66% latouria, 33% phalaenanthe)

I wonder how many failed pods they had to go through before they successfully crossed these two sections...and I wonder what other possibilities there are out there

PS - steve hows that pod coming along!

isurus79 · #6 06-21-2009, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvin_orchidL

PS - steve hows that pod coming along!

Nothin doin my friend. As I remember, it took and then kinda withered away. Maybe next year.....

catwalker808 · #7 06-22-2009, 06:16 AM

Calvin. nice thread you started ... on primary inter-sectional crosses. There have been a number of these primaries made ... but there also have been some notable complex hybrids made

The latouria x phalaenanthe cross you are thinking about is probably Den. Big Alex = (alexandrae x bigibbum), registered by H&R 8-10 years ago. It's a very prolific and early bloomer ... an exception among intersectional hybrids, which tend to have low seed production and/or require many many years to blooming.

H&R probably has done the most concerted breeding using the latouria section, largely because of the longevity of the flowers, the evergreen qualities of the plants and tolerance to wide ranges of climatic and cultural conditions. One of the mainstay plants in this breeding has been a hybrid which has been mentioned several times in the posts above ... (atroviolaceum x johnsoniae) = Den Roy Tokunaga, the namesake of the maker of the hybrid. As a whole, this and related lines of breeding have been very successful.

For Isurus ... the secondary hybrid, Den Frank Thrall is not latouria 67% x phalaenanthe 33%. One parent is all latouria = (atroviolaceum x johnsoniae). The other parent is all phalaenanthe = bigibbum. Therefore, Frank Thrall is 50% latouria and 50% phalaenanthe. However, because the Den Roy Tokunaga is 4N, it exerts a greater influence on the hybrid. Den Rising Star (atroviolaceum x johnsoniae) x (phalaenopsis x gouldii, a spatulata) may very well also involve a 4N Den Roy Tokunaga. The use of 4Ns in this line of breeding seems to have stabilized the quality of the crosses.

This thread's going in other directions also. But history seems to have demonstrated some general trends among intersectional hybrids: low fertility and low seed count, sometimes very low vigor and/or reluctance to bloom or prolonged periods to reach blooming maturity, which can sometimes mean VERY large plants. Den Omni and Den Violet Yamaji are examples of complex hybrids with very good flowers, but which take 6-7 years to blooming (in sunbelt climates and probably longer elsewhere)

Orchid Wiz can probably give some indication of what can be crossed (registered hybrids). On the other hand, you can only assume that with the easy availability of the parent species,many other combinations that are not listed may have been attempted but ended in failure.

Isurus, the most troublesome thing about den intersectional crosses is not necessarily the making of the seed. After that, you have to grow the plants. But being 28 gives you a lot of time to make intersectional crosses and grow the offspring.

isurus79 · #8 06-22-2009, 06:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catwalker808

Isurus, the most troublesome thing about den intersectional crosses is not necessarily the making of the seed. After that, you have to grow the plants. But being 28 gives you a lot of time to make intersectional crosses and grow the offspring.

Heck ya! I will be trying many cool and interesting hybrids over the next few decades!

Psyched · #9 06-22-2009, 07:04 AM

A breeder in Indonesia has successfully cross macrophyllum x stratiotes and stratiotes x spectabile. Unfortunately the crosses are in seedling size or bottle, flower photo of resulting cross has yet to be seen.

calvin_orchidL · #10 06-22-2009, 09:19 AM

Wow, thanks for the amazing information, catwalker! I can't wait for my Frank Thrall now. H&R has really pioneered this area which is pretty exciting.

I had a nora tokunaga x roy tokunaga a few years ago but killed it so this is my second attempt at latouria dends. Fingers are crossed.

One thing I am dying to see is a cross between nigrohirsute and latouria. I recently purchased a pretty standard dendrobium reference book "Dendrobium and it's relatives" and saw a reference to Sander's List, which lists all the inter-sectional hybrids and mentions that there is a latouria x nigrohirsute out there...but doesn't say what it's called.