Could you tell me if these 2 Paph's have a registered name

[gnathaniel]

Originally Posted by silken

But that is crossed with Paph.(Maudiae "Napa Valley" HCC/AOS X Sib) and the two crossed together don't show a registered hybrid name.

Hsinying Majakun is Janet Kunkle x Maudiae. Janet Kunkle is Memoria Allegria Gutierrez x Maudiae. Memoria Allegria Gutierrez is Makuli x superbiens/curtisii. So ((Makuli x curtisii) x Maudiae) x (Maudiae x sib) should be Hsinying Majakun. That's how I parse it, anyhow...

--Nat

[silken]

I'm not sure I agree. Hsinying Majakun's parents are Janet Kunkle and Maudiae as you say. So anything with those two parents is called Hsinying Majakun. But if you cross Hisnying Majakun with a Maudiae you increase the Maudie content by another 25% in the make-up of that new hybrid. The new hybrid also has different parents now Hsinying Majakun x Maudiae not Janet Kunkle x Maudiae so I would say it is not the same hybrid although the content is similar with more and less of some of the original's content. It is a new hybrid with different parents.

[RosieC]

Silken is right, if you cross Hsinying Majakun with Maudiae you don't get Hsinying Majakum but a new hybrid. This is called back-crossing and with man-made hybrids it always results in a new hybrid.

HOWEVER, that's not what is happening here (as I read it).

Maudiae "Napa Valley" HCC/AOS X Sib is crossed separately to the others and while it does not keep the "Napa Valley" or the awards it DOES result in a Maudiae.

When the Maudiae created by the above cross is then crossed with ((Makuli x curtisii) x Maudiae), otherwise known as Janet Kunkle then the result is the same as ANY Maudiae crossed with Janet Kunkle and that is Hsinying Majakun.

((Makuli x curtisii) x Maudiae) x (Maudiae x sib) is the same as
((Makuli x curtisii) x Maudiae) x Maudiae simply because (Maudiae x sib) is still a Maudiae.

If it was (((Makuli x curtisii) x Maudiae) x Maudiae) x Maudiae) then it would be back crossing Hsinying Majakun with Maudiae and that would be something new.

[silken]

Paph. Hsinying Majakun ((Makuli-Curtisii)-Maudiae) X Paph.(Maudiae "Napa Valley" HCC/AOS X Sib)

Above is what was originally the questioned cross. The way I read it is Hsinying Majakun x Maudiae x sib (removing the clonal names and awards etc.). So to me it can't be the same hybrid as the parents that were crossed to make Hsinying Majakun by itself.

I'm no expert and maybe I am reading the bracketing and what not incorrectly, but my understanding is that a named hybrid must have the same parents.

[RosieC]

The way I read it is that it's not saying that it's Hsinying Majakum x Maudiae. It's saying that it's Hsinying Majakum and then it's going on to tell you what this particular Hsinying Majakum is made from which is ((Makuli-Curtisii)-Maudiae) X Paph.(Maudiae "Napa Valley" HCC/AOS X Sib). It's probably listed this way to allow them to point out that it has the "Napa Valley" cultivar in the parentage.

If you read it that Hsinying Majakum is ((Makuli-Curtisii)-Maudiae) and that that is then crossed with Paph.(Maudiae "Napa Valley" HCC/AOS X Sib) then it would be wrong, because ((Makuli-Curtisii)-Maudiae) is actually Janet Kunkle and not Hsinying Majakum (I've just checked this for myself on the RHS site).

Reading the brackets I think you are doing right (you cross the things within the brackets first), but I think the confusion here is that it would have been written clearer as...

Paph. Hsinying Majakun (((Makuli-Curtisii)-Maudiae) X Paph.(Maudiae "Napa Valley" HCC/AOS X Sib))

with an extra set of brakets which show that the X Paph.(Maudiae "Napa Valley" HCC/AOS X Sib) is part of the Hsinying Majakun and not something crossed with it afterwards.

[RosieC]

Another way of putting it is that it isn't
Hsinying Majakun x Maudiae x sib,

it's actually Janet Kunkle x (Maudiae x sib)

you cross the Maudiae x sib first to give another Maudiae so it becomes

Janet Kunkle x Maudiae

which is Hsinying Majakun.

[gnathaniel]

I think I'm parsing it the same way as you, Rosie, thanks for putting it much better than I did! This definitely illustrates the utility of reducing grex names as much as possible when writing plant tags...

--Nat