Phrag Fritz Somberg...Help ! Dead or Salvageable?

[Cearbhael]

My Phrag Fritz Schomberg got very sick. Was rotting from the growing tip out. I have 8 Phrags, 6 of them are Phrag Kovachii primary hybrids or Phrag Besseae primary hybrids. 2 are species...Phrag Peircie and Phrag Longifolium. I have them in specific Phragmipedium media in slotted pots with raised bottom to promote excellent drainage. I received them all in late March from Ecuagenera. Most handled the trip very well. Didn’t have trouble until summer when temps soared into the upper 90’s and stayed there. I live in Minnesota and it was a beastly hot summer. Fritz Schomberg was the first to show distress, rotting from the centre out. I treated it with Physan. Didn’t stop anything! The rest have been losing a leaf here or there from the outside. Always starting at the leaf tip. I have only 1 which has strolled through the heat with no issues at all, that being Phrag Ecuagenera Gigi. I have been keeping them in less than an inch of Distilled water. I give them dilute fertiliser and vitamin/minerals once a week and flush them with clear water once a week. Drainage cups are cleaned thoroughly once a week as well. The media has remained moist, I am sure sucking up water from the drainage cup. Should I be doing things differently? I normally keep Phals. Or Dendrobiums very successfully.
Back to Fritz Schomberg, I lost the last growth today, but... the rhizome and roots are healthy! I am very confused as to what to do! Can I get new growth from the rhizome or will it all rot eventually? What should I do differently in the culture? Should things be dryer? Should I rinse the media more often? Should I feed them more? I use distilled water with the food and vitamin/mineral concentrate. Diluted to about 1/4 the printed instructions. Should I keep the drain cup empty? ANY advice is welcome! I can handle criticism! It is the way we learn how NOT to do things

[estación seca]

Welcome to the Orchid Board!

Let me see if I understand. These plants arrived in spring. You potted them into a Phrag medium and stood them in dishes with water in the bottom. You fertilized once a week with a fertilizer solution you diluted to 1/4 the recommended strength. They have experienced plenty of days into the upper 90s F /35-38C.

My questions:

• Are you growing them inside, or outside?
• What are the night temperatures in the growing area?
• Do you mean they always stand in water in the dishes, or do you let it dry out?
• How much light do they get?

I suspect the Fritz died from too much heat. I've found Phrags tolerate, sullenly, temperatures into the upper 80s F, but I'd be afraid to take them much higher.

I suspect the dying back from the leaf tips is caused by too much fertilizer. Phrags need very, very little fertilizer compared to other orchids. It is easy to cause leaf burn with too many dissolved salts in the water.

You can read lecture notes from a talk the orchid curator Brandon Tam of the Huntington Gardens in Los Angeles gave to our society a few years ago here. He said he use fertilizer diluted to 10 parts per million of nitrogen for his Phrags. There is a fertilizer calculator at the First Rays Web site, under Free Information. Input your fertilizer's nitrogen number to find out how much you need to use to get 10 parts per million. I suspect it is a lot less than you are using. I need to mix Phrag fertilizer in 5-gallon buckets because I don't have measuring spoons small enough to mix smaller quantities.

I would keep water in the dish always. They are wet growers. Don't let them dry out at all. For this reason you don't need to use slotted pots. I wouldn't use them because I have trouble watering often enough. If you can give them enough water slotted pots are fine.

If you collect rain water you won't need to buy distilled.

If they can have cooler night temperatures they will better tolerate high day temperatures.

---------- Post added at 01:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:39 PM ----------

Another thought - if the rhizome and roots of the Fritz are alive, it might grow again. Bring it someplace cooler and keep it moist.

[Cearbhael]

Thanks for the quick response! I did worry about the heat! Like I said, beastly summer! I do run an overhead fan where they are (South window...diffused light) Actually ran it on high in the worst heat. I will definitely follow the links you provided me! I will reduce the fertiliser load. As to rain water, we have seen very little until September arrived. Very serious drought with forest fires totally out of control! Air quality has been severely compromised! We have suddenly gotten rain lasting all day. Hoping the return of rain helps douse the flames
I live in a house built in 1895. No air conditioning, but cooler inside than out...very mature trees shading house. Snow can begin any time from Late Oct and can freeze as far as May 26th. In Jan we get temps as low as -35° and usually we have deep snow! Though Phals and Dendrobiums may enjoy summer outside, the Phrags would not!
I think my culture minus the fertiliser has been in line with what you recommend. I check them daily and never allow them to dry out. I am thinking it wouldn’t hurt to run fresh water through them more often.
Temps have fallen and we are looking at 60’s to 70’s now. Nights are ALWAYS cooler. At 99° we are lucky to drop to 70° at night, but again, Summer is only 3 months long here.Temperatures will continue to fall through Sept and we will be at freezing temps by the end of Oct. Nov, Dec, Jan and Feb are mostly unbearably cold! I do have the heat programmed for cooler nights! Most plants benefit from that.
Again thanks! I didn’t expect the unusually hot and dry summer to be so ruthless. Usually heat spells are short lived here which is a relief

[Ray]

I am growing all of my phrags outdoors here in southeastern North Carolina, and I see no signs of heat stress, it then again, I have no plants with”near” parentage of cooler growers.

Caerbhael - what potting medium? Coarse or fine? What fertilizer formula and how much per gallon do you use?

What is the vitamin supplement and how much of that have you used per gallon?

[Cearbhael]

I use Paph and Phrag Imperial Orchid Mix. I would classify it as “medium” I have added to it some charcoal to sweeten the mix and oyster shell, to provide calcium. Only a small handful of each (I have very small hands) The make up of the mix is on RePotme.com
The plant food is Schultz 10-15-10 Plus. Which contains 10% Total Nitrogen (1.6%Ammoniacal Nitrogen, 0.2% Nitrate Nitrogen, 8.2% Urea Nitrogen), 15% Available Phosphate, 10% Soluble Potash, O.10% Chelated Iron, 0.05% Chelated Manganese, and 0.05% Chelated Zinc.
The recommended dosage is 28 drops per gal. I have been using 7 drops which is 1/4 dosage. I am told I need to dilute further.
The vitamin solution is Superthrive enhanced with kelp. The kelp adds 0.5% Nitrogen (0.04 Soluble and 0.01 Insoluble)
Active ingredients are: 0.09% Vitamin B1 from Thiamine Hydrochloride. Inactive Ingredients: 1.8% Alcohol, 2.0% Acetic Acid as preservative. The remaining 96.11 Total other ingredients are available at aapfco.org/metals
As for dosage, it recommends 1/4 tsp per gal, but I follow the tender plant dosage of 1 drop per gal.
I use distilled water. My tap water has a 7.5 ph and is heavy in calcium. It is also full of chemicals and chlorine. I have considered treating as I do the water for my beta. It removes harmful Nitrates and Chlorine’s. However, even though they may love the calcium, I am not sure what they need to breakdown and absorb the mineral, or how the high ppm will affect them. I have heard of 2 people using similar tap or well water with great success. I would love to try it but won’t until I see an improvement. I will currently continue to use distilled.

[Roberta]

Phrags do tend to want/need better water than Paphs. Paphs are fine with high calcium, high solids in their water (many grow on limestone cliffs) while Phrags tend to grow near streams. So using distilled water is good for them. They likely need a little of minerals such as calcium, but not much - the easy way to achieve that is to just mix a bit (maybe 1:5 or 1:10) of tap water in with the distilled. But they certainly don't need a heavy dosing of calcium.

I would also go easy on the Superthrive. Ask yourself "What problem am I solving with this?" A bit right after you repot might help to stimulate root growth, but over time, it can build up. (I don't have that many Phrags, did not particularly use it there, but I had a problem, after several years, of mutations in Cattleya flowers...stopped using the stuff and the problem went away)

[estación seca]

There's no calcium in anything you're using. Lack of calcium can cause dying growths.

I use powdered fertilizer because it's so much less expensive per amount of nutrients compared to liquid formulas.

Your temperatures now should be fine.

I would: Finish up what fertilizer you have at 2 drops per gallon. Stop the Superthrive completely and throw it away. It doesn't last long in heat, isn't necessary and may cause problems. Mix 10-25% of your tap water with 90-75% rain, RO or distilled water to provide calcium. Let the tap water stand in a pitcher overnight before use if you want to get rid of chlorine (I don't worry about it.) You might be able to buy reverse osmosis water at an aquarium shop for much less money than distilled water. Bring your own clean buckets or jugs.

[Cearbhael]

I am reducing my fertiliser, I do have Shultz in powdered form, in a different ratio...specifically for orchids. 19-31-17 but it looks like a higher percentage and maybe NOT good for the Phrags!?! It is no problem stopping Super thrive for the Phrags, but my Phals and Epiphylliums love the stuff. I will have to do some Math (ugh) to figure the dilution. I know how many drops equal a 1/4 tsp so will work from there (as the first person who answered my post said “no measuring spoons small enough!”)
As for mixing my water with tap water, it makes lots of sense to me. I will be trying that! Actually they did get a mix when they first arrived. I talked myself out of it. Most of the die off has occurred after I quit using the tap water. Thanks for pointing this out!

[Roberta]

Remember, of all of the cultural factors with orchid growing, fertilizer is the LEAST important. They need "some" fertilizer (minerals to build cell walls, etc) but think of fertilizer as "vitamins" not "food". Green plants make their own food - carbs - by photosynthesis. If you have a commercial nursery with thousands of plants, you'll tweak the fertilizer to get optimum growth. (You'll tweak all of the other factors too) With a small collection, the "once weekly, weakly" approach is plenty. The exact formulation, largely irrelevant.

Actually, the Schultz formulation looks like it was designed for very hard water - the middle number (Phosphorus) is not particularly important for orchids, it serves mostly as an acidifier for alkaline hard water. The first number, nitrogen, is the most important constituent. But if you're using fairly pure water, you would not want to use a hard-water formulation.

[Cearbhael]

Originally Posted by Roberta

Actually, the Schultz formulation looks like it was designed for very hard water - the middle number (Phosphorus) is not particularly important for orchids, it serves mostly as an acidifier for alkaline hard water. The first number, nitrogen, is the most important constituent. But if you're using fairly pure water, you would not want to use a hard-water formulation.

My water is going to be a mix of 1/4 hard water (calcium rich) and 3/4 distilled. It is hopeful it will prevent the type of rot in the top green growth which has possibly destroyed my Fritz Schomberg. Being I have healthy roots, I am hoping the calcium will encourage new growth and prevent the same from happening in any other of my Phrags. I have gone from March to September, and the majority are fairly healthy. The daily care they require has definitely formed a bond, I would say I am fairly emotionally committed and definitely wish to succeed in growing Phrags. It is my first attempt and I have wanted to try for years now! Fritz Schomberg has been a bit of a blow and it moved so fast over the summer! I have no control over the summer temps that usually include brief heatwaves, but nothing like what we have seen this summer. Persistent abnormally hot weather. I am sure it contributed to Fritz Schomberg’s downfall, and my choosing to go straight distilled water early June probably was a very bad decision. Next summer they are getting refrigerated water and refrigerated misting to cool them down when temps spike

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