Phrag kovachii

[Neofalcata]

Originally Posted by Eric M Muehlbauer

Well, I have been impressed by kovachii....but only by its size, not its color...certainly not its shape, as I have read that the blooms start to curl almost immediately after opening...

I guess I have to be the voice of the minority on this board as well.

First it needs to be renamed Peruvianum. Second, the very thing that I love about Kovachii is the big floppy petals. That is the way it was created. Once breeders start "improving" it, it will lose the very thing that makes it beautiful in the first place. Will the second and third generation Kovachii's be great? Sure. But they won't be the same, or as nice IMO as the big pink/purple floppy eared beauty. Man's improvement of nature's already perfect orchids for the sake of a few ribbons and a slap on the back by an AOS judge isn't what Kovachii needs.

[Heather]

You know, to each their own, that's the bottom line if you ask me. And Neo - I actually think you may be more in the majority here! But I'd like to throw this one out there to you - how BRED have Neofinitias been? It is my understanding that breeding quality Neos is regarded as an art form, and until recently one reserved for the ultra elite in Japan.

My point is - to each their own.

I am most looking forward to seeing the first kov. seedlings and hybrids, and also their future. I think it is very exciting!

<peeve alert>
BTW, species are not capitalized. (come on Julie, back me up on this will ya?) </peeve>

Where is Rob Halgren, anyway?

[Piper]

Don't forget...small caps are a sign of coolness, and species are truly cool! Especially newly discovered ones...which I've already ordered! (Guess that shows where I fall in this discussion!)

julie

[Neofalcata]

Originally Posted by Paphgirl

You know, to each their own, that's the bottom line if you ask me. And Neo - I actually think you may be more in the majority here! But I'd like to throw this one out there to you - how BRED have Neofinitias been? It is my understanding that breeding quality Neos is regarded as an art form, and until recently one reserved for the ultra elite in Japan.

Heather,

I own both wild collected and "bred" versions of besseae. I prefer wild collected style besseae to the round petal look, but both are nice in their own way. If this is any indication of the type of "breeding improvements" we will see in kovachii in the coming years, I will be glad to just have the kovachii that is coming within the next year and leave the "improved" line bred offspring to people who want to show them.

I am not sure what Neo's have to do with kovachii, but I think you want to label me a hypocrite. Variegated Neo's are divisions of wild collected plants. There is only one type of variegated Neo that will produce variegated seedlings, and even then the offspring so closely resemble the parents that it is next to impossible to tell which is the seedling and which is the division. All other variegated types are divisions of age old plants, period. Other Neo's can be grown from seed, but are so far from being "bred" for changes, it is not even an issue. Neo's today look just like Neo's did hundreds of years ago. That is why some are so expensive, because they are divisions of mother plants which may be very rare. Jason Fischer is selling divisions of a plant that was collected in the 1800's if memory serves.

I was simply trying to express my opinion about kovachii, which happens to be exactly the opposite of alot of people. To each his own, usually means letting someone voice their opinion, even if it greatly differs from your own without trying to bait them.

By the way, sorry for the capitilization of kovachii in my previous post. Didn't know it urked you so much. I am not going to go back and edit out my improper caps in that first post though, because that would be wrong. I promise to do better.

[Heather]

No no, not trying to label you at all!

I didn't know that Neos were not being line-bred. I apologize for inferring that. So they are ALL divisions? Every single one?
I figured that, for sure, some Neofinitia falcatas must have been line bred by now. It is, albeit possibly unfortunately, the norm among orchid growers. With such perfection relished among Japanese arts, I find it hard to imagine that the Japanese aren't breeding these for better specimens. And that they haven't been doing this for generations! They sure are breeding paphs!

While I value wild collected plants for their genetic diversity, on the other hand, I know a lot of folks that would balk at wild plants for one removing them from their natural environment. So that is another issue - wild collected kovachiis are obviously a no-no...so I find the comparison very interesting!

(btw, you know how crazy the Japanese are for ultra-bred Paphs, yes? Hence my confusion - and why I asked...)

And still to each their own - I just wanted to point out that what is beautiful for one for a certain reason may be ugly to another, and vice versa. People are always going to strive for perfection - be that a good or a bad thing, time will tell.

As I recall, someone wished to start a discussion here - and so he did. Bravo! Let's keep it up!

[Neofalcata]

Originally Posted by Paphgirl

I didn't know that Neos were not being line-bred. I apologize for inferring that. So they are ALL divisions? Every single one?

Almost every variegated Neo is a division according to Jason Fischer. There are some regular Neo's that have been seed grown, but they aren't line bred like American orchids are. The Japanese so respect these plants that I find it hard to believe they would allow line breeding of Neo's. There may be one exception.

Certain yellow/orange Neo's have been reportedly crossed with Ascocentrum in the background, but then crossed back to Neofinetia so much that they resemble Neofinetia. But even these are called Neofinetia and not Neocentrum or some other derivation. And there are wild collected yellow, green and pink Neo's. I may be wrong but that is what I believe from everything I have read/been told. Maybe it is time to invite Jason in here to clear it up?

They believe in growing them for perfection rather than breeding them for perfection. That is fine with me, because it doesn't change the shape/size/color of the flower. I can't give you accurate numbers of how many are divisions and how many are seed grown, but they all look the same as they have for hundreds of years, perfect. If I found out that Neo's were line bred, I wouldn't buy any. I buy them on the belief that they are not any different from the plants I could have if I traveled back in time and grabbed one from the collection of a Samurai.

Originally Posted by Paphgirl

While I value wild collected plants for their genetic diversity, on the other hand, I know a lot of folks that would balk at wild plants for one removing them from their natural environment. So that is another issue - wild collected kovachiis are obviously a no-no...so I find the comparison very interesting!

I would never advocate removing wild collected plants now, for profit. The wild collected Neo's I refer to were collected way before cites ever existed and have been grown as family heirlooms. I would also not advocate wild collecting kovachii. When I say "wild collected" type kovachii, what I mean is the first generation of seedlings grown from breeding two wild collected plants. These seedlings will have the same floppy petals and large flowers as their wild collected parents. Three generations from now, who knows what they will look like. The wild collected besseae I have is a division of a plant that is owned legally by Jerry at Orchids Limited.

That is why I wish the name would be changed from kovachii to peruvianum. Glory through theft and greed is not a stigma I like to see attached to such a beautiful plant.

[littlefrog]

Unfortunately the name kovachii takes precedence due to its being published first. At least that is the ruling on the field... Sneakily and with probable illegal material, but first. I prefer peruvianum, as well.

Glen Decker made a good point about kovachii at our judging seminar in May. If it has round flat petals, it ain't open... Don't judge it! I agree that part of the charm is the large floppy petals. Like Dumbo's ears. I've got dibs on Dumbo as a clonal name, people!! It is impossible to tell what it will give to its hybrids. The purple colors that you see are hard to come by otherwise. I think increased petal width in the hybrids would be a plus. But we will have to breed away from floppy - regardless of how charming it is, it won't be easy to sell.

I liked it well enough to buy two flasks from Glen.

Originally Posted by Neofalcata

I guess I have to be the voice of the minority on this board as well.

First it needs to be renamed Peruvianum. Second, the very thing that I love about Kovachii is the big floppy petals. That is the way it was created. Once breeders start "improving" it, it will lose the very thing that makes it beautiful in the first place. Will the second and third generation Kovachii's be great? Sure. But they won't be the same, or as nice IMO as the big pink/purple floppy eared beauty. Man's improvement of nature's already perfect orchids for the sake of a few ribbons and a slap on the back by an AOS judge isn't what Kovachii needs.

[Neofalcata]

I had read that part of the sentence against Selby gardens was that they had to petition to have the name changed. I assume this has already happened, and the choice has already been made to leave it as kovachii?

You would think that something like this would tarnish the reputation of the taxonomical community, and that they would want to change it. Also, is taxonomical a word?

Someday, I am going to build a greenhouse where I only grow seedlings from natural looking orchids. Angular besseae, floppy kovachii, and phals that don't overlap. They may not sell, but it will be beautiful.

[Eric M Muehlbauer]

There is no chance that the name will be changed...regardless of ethical considerations, Kovach beat the system on naming the phrag. To allow the vastly better name of peruvianum, the rules would have to be changed...not likely to happen. Botanical taxonomy is very conservative...no changes likely in those rules...and probably correctly so. True, it bugs a lot of people (myself included) that a smuggler gets awarded with a plant named after him (and there is no way that I buy that Kovach was unaware of the legal ramifications of bringing that plant in..), but it got published first...if anyone is really at fault in the naming, its Selby, who went for opportunity over ethics...but changing the rules of nomenclature opens too many cans of worms...witness the Paph situation with tigrinum vs. markianum. Guido still insists that his name "markianum" is the valid name because it was published first...by fax to a botanical institution.
Koopowits (with substantially more support) regards tigrinum as the proper name because it was published in print first...Overall, tigrinum appears to be the accepted name...it was literally published first. Braem still holds his ground, while conceding that tigrinum is a better name in and of itself. As for the kovachii petals...I must clarify myself: the floppiness does not disturb me...its the recurving of the petals after opening...reminds me of too many mediocre complex paphs....Take care, Eric

[Ray]

While I think the species itself is a total knockout, I cannot wait to see what this does to the entire field of phrag breeding. Except for besseae, everything was getting to be a blend of pink, green, and brown - sort of like the myriad of white phals.

When I spent a day with Joe Kunische of Bloomfiled Orchids before speaking to their OS last spring, he was talking about "getting out of phrags" for that very reason. When I mentioned P. kovachii, he said something to the effect of "Well... that's true."