Cymbidium sinese: Not blooming, maybe needs checkup?

[stonedragonfarms]

Originally Posted by alecStewart1

Hmm, good to know. I think for a lot of plants it's just getting used to the laziness of what other people say to grow plants at for light, temps and such.



I've been hearing about all of the FB groups and I would join in a second if I didn't have my skepticism about FB and if joining wouldn't open myself to the headache of extended family on FB.



The mix I got from MysteryGardenStore looks to be nothing too large. If I really felt like it at the time, I probably could've sorted the clay and bark into small, medium to large pieces and put them in the plastic cymbidium pot I also got from the same Etsy story from large at the bottom to small up top, as I guess that's the more "proper" way of using the medium, but I didn't feel like sorting clay pebbles and bits of wood by hand at the time.


While you're here, do you know if breeding between Jenosa species is common or considered a faux pas in Asian orchid scene?

Also is ensifolium just the better species to breed with non-Jenosa Cymbidiums species compared to sinense and goeringii? I kind of like some of the darker flowered sinense varieties (as well as the variegated ones, obviously), but I'm surprised I haven't seen many hybrids that have any sinense or goeringii parentage.

There are quite a few hybrids with Jensoa section in the background, though most of what's available in the states [ie commercially] is with an ensifolium parent--as Roberta mentioned above, it gives warmth tolerance & lessens the need for day/night temperature differentials to initiate spiking. If you look at the Chinese, South Korean, Taiwanese & Japanese nursery sites, you can find a number of other hybrids that have the other species in their lineage--in addition to warmth tolerance, most of them also potentially reduce the physical size of their progeny, shorten spike length, even up bloom spacing on spikes or introduce fragrance to the mix [almost all of section Jensoa is fragrant at some point in the day]
Goeringii has been used mostly by the Japanese, so far as I know, specifically by Mukoyama; as it generally greatly reduces plant size and introduces fragrance to the mix--though it also usually brings along its distinctive floral form, which is not always desirable... I'm not sure how variegation works; I'm guessing that as it's mostly unstable to begin with in most cymbidiums, it gets subverted mostly in hybrids--there are a few C. Golden Elf that have marginal or leaf tip variegation, but I've not encountered one [yet] with anything more substantial.

[Jmoney]

if you got it 3 months ago, perhaps it's not your conditions that are the issue. might need to acclimate. i don't recall when sinense initiates spikes. goeringii initiates spikes many months before the actual bloom season.

[Roberta]

Cyms in general initiate spikes as many as 6 months before they bloom. (I suspect that the Chinese species are no different than their larger cousins) I would not expect a young plant to bloom in the first year in general. (Actually the case with almost any orchid... the precocious ones are a delightful surprise, the exceptions not the rule. )

[alecStewart1]

Meant to follow up on this awhile ago, but I think it's definitely a patience thing.

This guy has just started poking out new leaf growth at the base. It's small, but it's noticeably growing because the growth has pushed out another leave to grow along with it. So it's just two little leaves sloooowly getting bigger.

To follow up on something stonedragonfarms said, if you're wanting to grow these orchids there's a few things I've found:

1. If you're looking for a mix, you can find pretty much each of the special japanese pumices at House of Bonsai. For bark, if you're going to use it, you can just get regular small-medium to medium sized orchid bark from your preferred vendor. So long as the medium sized bark isn't above 3/8 inches, it should be good to use.
2. Cym. goeringii, is contentious in whether or not it's not a cold to cool grower. At least looking around, so long as they aren't in very bright light for orchids, 80 degrees Fahrenheit might be the upper limit for them temperature wise. It sounds like they do in fact grow in a lot of places that can get up to 30 degrees Celsius, or 86 degrees Fahrenheit, but be cautious regardless. Always acclimate your plants as best you can.

[Asian Cymbidium Empress]

First, Cymbidium sinense damo is known to be slow and difficult to grow. In addition, this is Zhongtou type with very little green = so this means very very slowly growing. Regular East Asian Cymbidiums are low feeders, so imagine these East Asian Cymbidiums without green, little to no fertlizer. Any new barerooted East Asian Cymbidiums fresh off the boat from Taiwan or China should not be fertlized for 6 months to 1 year. Many vendors just pot them up (incorrectly) and sell them online. These vendors don't grow them, just flippers to make quick cash. I was told that many of these vendors themselves don't know how to grow them. So as I mentioned before, for all East Asian Cymbdiums, I only use East Asian Cymbidium Mix from Japan which is blend consisted of hard kanuma, yaki akadama, zeolite....etc. Hard Kanuma and yaki akadama are pumices. It is blended in a specific ratio with a specific pumice grain size. East Asian Cymbidium has a very specific pH requirement, the soil should be between pH 5.5-6.5, any deviation from this pH, they will not very happy, and in other types of media, they will die within 1-3 years depending on your skills. The Japanese East Asian Cymbidium Mix is the highest quality and safest materials to use for any East Asian Cymbidiums. Taiwanese vendors know about them but you cannot get them in Taiwan because it is too costly; however, they do use a mix similar to the Japanese mix in Taiwan for high end varieities, they all know that it is the best and produces the healthiest roots (long white roots). I have used this material for over 10 years and I see the results, they just grow like any orchids, bud/bloom every year if I want them to nothing special.

---------- Post added at 12:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 AM ----------

Okay for Cymbidium goeringii, this is the conditions you need, yes, I have grown them and bloom them for over 10 years. First, they are all potted in Japanese Cymbidium Mix with the correct soil condition (correct pH between 5.5-6.5), aeration and drainage...etc.
Cymbidium goeringii is a seasonal grower so everything is changed accordingly:

Spring and Fall: Temp = 15C (avg), intermediate grower. Water once every 9-10 days.

Summer : temp = 25C-30C, warm grower. Water once every 5-6 ays.

Winter: temp = 0C-10C, cold grower. Water once every 12-14 days.

The light situation should be 75% shade all year round except Summer. Summer you need to keep them at 90% shade.

Since Cymbidiums are "cool growers", how do you cool them in the summer when it is scorching hot? You only water your cymbidiums in the evening after 7pm. Never water your Cym goeringii (in fact all of your East Asian Cymbidiums) during the day in the summer, only in the evening. This is the trick to keep them cool in the summer.

Cymbidium goeringii buds from late July and the buds should come out from the soil in September. There is nothing you have to do, they just bud by themselves when the time comes on mature growths. When grown in East Asian Cymbidium Mix, there is nothing I do, they just bud around this time. Yes, they bud in the middle of the summer when it is hot and by the fall, the buds will be around 3cm-5cm tall, and they will stop growing.

To bloom it, Cymbidium goeringii requires vernalization. Vernalization is to expose the plant in a cold condition for a period of time so they acquire enough energy to bloom in the spring. For Cym goeringii, vernalization period should be beween 45-60 days and the temp should be maintained between 0C-10C at all times. I start vernalization between Dec 15 and Dec 22 and stop it by early March. This year, I also bloomed all the Cymbidium goeringii I have in the collection. Depending on the variety, they start blooming by early February and all the way into mid April, very long flowering season.

If you want more information, you know where to find me on facebook or slippertalk.

[alecStewart1]

Originally Posted by Asian Cymbidium Empress

First, Cymbidium sinense damo is known to be slow and difficult to grow. In addition, this is Zhongtou type with very little green = so this means very very slowly growing. Regular East Asian Cymbidiums are low feeders, so imagine these East Asian Cymbidiums without green, little to no fertlizer.

Ah well of course for my first Cymbidium I wound up purchasing a more difficult plant. Well, I usually end up diving head first into things so this isn't entirely and abnormal trend for me.

I made an order to Flora Peculia for their Cymbidium mix and diatomite that they recommend putting in the bottom of the Cymbidium pots.

I'm probably also going to get pH testing strips to test the run off water from my potted Cym. sinense to see what the pH is, because I'm kind of curious about this aspect now.

The plant seems to be doing fine, though. It's keeping all of it's leaves, growing new ones but slowly but like you mentioned, it's a slow growing variety. I'm making sure to water it a bit more frequently, as the mix I have seems to be drying more around 3-4 days now.

[Asian Cymbidium Empress]

I also started with goeringii. My Taiwanese vendor said that if you are able to grow and bloom goeringii, you can pretty much grow any East Asian Cymbidiums you want. (In fact, i think any orchids I want because of its very specific requirements).

Yes, that's good, Flora Peculia and I use the same Mix from the same source.


I forgot to mention in the previous post but you should be doing it without me mentioning for ALL east asian cymbidiums, only use very clean water with low ppm. I use rain water all year round (pH around 6.8, low ppm). In Toronto, the city water is alkaline (pH > 8) and has a high ppm, so this water is unsuitable for east asian cymbidiums, the city water damages the roots within 6 months. You can tell because the leaf tip started to turn black on all the leaves, if you see that, it's a sign that you are losing roots. My other types of orchids, Cattleya, Dendrobium, Paph...etc, they don't care, city water is fine. For East Asian Cymbidiums, please only use clean water such as rain water and/or RO water.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by alecStewart1

when I first got it I gave it some water with a bit of Kelpak and Quantum Total, in order to help establish it in it's new home. I didn't give it the full recommended amount, I halved it.

Why would you halve them?

There is nothing in either product that can “burn” plants, and by halving the recommended concentrations, you rendered them far less effective than intended.

Think of Kelpak as a “plant IV” containing the same phytochemicals that plants produce for themselves, to be used as building blocks and fuel for growth. The recommended 1:250 is a moderate concentration that is still very effective. Half that is on the edge where it might have no effect at all. Double that recommended dose is not harmful in the least.

Quantum is a mixture of live bacteria that populate the medium and the plant. Their secretions also provide some fuel and building blocks, plus kill pathogens and help prevent infections in general. The idea is to develop a large population, then periodically supplement it to maintain it at a high level. Halving that is going in the wrong direction, and you can pour the stuff straight from the jar without fear of damage.

[alecStewart1]

Originally Posted by Ray

Why would you halve them?

There is nothing in either product that can “burn” plants, and by halving the recommended concentrations, you rendered them far less effective than intended.

Think of Kelpak as a “plant IV” containing the same phytochemicals that plants produce for themselves, to be used as building blocks and fuel for growth. The recommended 1:250 is a moderate concentration that is still very effective. Half that is on the edge where it might have no effect at all. Double that recommended dose is not harmful in the least.

Quantum is a mixture of live bacteria that populate the medium and the plant. Their secretions also provide some fuel and building blocks, plus kill pathogens and help prevent infections in general. The idea is to develop a large population, then periodically supplement it to maintain it at a high level. Halving that is going in the wrong direction, and you can pour the stuff straight from the jar without fear of damage.

Yea now that you mention it, Ray, I don't really know why I would halve it.

I guess it was the initial worrywart-ing of reading everything about these types of Cymbidiums, getting information overload and thus being overly cautious for no real reason.

I periodically apply Quantum Total and Kelpak every so often to help with growth and stave off infection with my other orchids, along with the regular fertilizing with K-lite now that it's growing season, so I'm probably going to do that with these Cymbidiums as well.

Again, the Cym. sinense seems to be doing fine, and if further application of Quantum Total and Kelpak will only help it, I'm not going to halve it anymore.

I also tested the pH of the medium it comes out to somewhere in the range of 5.5 - 6.0, so within the 5.5 - 6.5 pH range Asian Cymbidium Empress mentioned.

[Asian Cymbidium Empress]

East Asian Cymbidiums, unlike your hybrid Cymbidium hybrids, they are low feeders. I don't talk much about fertilizer for East Asian Cymbidiums in general because it is the least of your concern. You rather "under" feed them than over feed them. I only use slow release fertlizer for them (each application is effective for 6 months). Especially, plants with no chlorophyll, definitely little to no fertilizer. My Jap vendor told me that he only use slow release, never liquid fertlizer. I apply slow release in the spring only and I use a very diluted liquid fertlizer twice a year, that's it.

I was also advised by my Japanese vendor as well, any additional plant hormones will prevent them from blooming.