Clarifying the Culture for Asian Cymbidiums

[Roberta]

Originally Posted by alecStewart1

This Jack Zhu?

June 2023 – Jack Zhu | Palomar Orchid Society

That would be great! I'd like to learn more from a master if possible. I'll PM you here in a bit.

Yes,

[alecStewart1]

Originally Posted by Jmoney

I think in most cases variegation is inherited only by division. Just like for neos.

I saw some study I found from 2007 that it's possible for variegation to be inherited if the mother plant has it.

Granted, that's probably a much smaller chance that from division, and I don't know if part of the condition is if the mother plant got it's variegation from the original plant being chimeric or that it's a particular -ploid for it's genus/species.

Also, 2007 is over a decade ago, so newer research has possibly come to a different conclusion.

Again, maybe Jack Zhu, other US growers or growers in Asia know something we don't and no one has ever really asked.

[Jmoney]

just speaking from the neo experience, some types of striping are inheritable, the chirafu "spread" type. the usual striping and the marginal variegation, rarely. I do not know that fully carries over to cyms.

[Clawhammer]

I grow and bloom ensifolium, sinense, and goeringii inside. Also Cym Golden Elf. I got them all from MysteryGardenStore a couple years ago. MGS is a really good vendor.

[alecStewart1]

Originally Posted by Clawhammer

I grow and bloom ensifolium, sinense, and goeringii inside.

Oh good to know! Do you have to do anything particular with any of them to get them to bloom, or are they just fine indoors?

Originally Posted by Clawhammer

Also Cym Golden Elf. I got them all from MysteryGardenStore a couple years ago. MGS is a really good vendor.

Also good to know. There's another vendor on Etsy that's "CymbidiumUS" which may be good, but I was skeptical given one picture of an ensifolium/sinense that looked like the supposed corresponding flower spike photoshopped onto a non-flowering plant.

I mean, I get it. If you're managing hundreds on plants for an Etsy store that's likely your side hustle from your main job, I wouldn't be surprised if you forget to take pictures. But comeon, now. Let's not be silly.

Below are the images in question. Notice anything?

[Jmoney]

awfully large flower for the size of the plant too. if that's not a red flag I don't know what is.

I have seen some really questionable orchid-related stuff on etsy. I only go there to look for neo pots from a couple vendors, including a gentleman in Ukraine.

I don't really grow asian cyms but most vendors also sell neos, and I have plenty of those. seed engei, new world orchids are certainly reputable. Jack Zhu also sells asian cyms. I got a peloric goeringii from him recently, couldn't resist. obviously very healthy.

[Clawhammer]

Originally Posted by alecStewart1

Oh good to know! Do you have to do anything particular with any of them to get them to bloom, or are they just fine indoors?



Also good to know. There's another vendor on Etsy that's "CymbidiumUS" which may be good, but I was skeptical given one picture of an ensifolium/sinense that looked like the supposed corresponding flower spike photoshopped onto a non-flowering plant.

I mean, I get it. If you're managing hundreds on plants for an Etsy store that's likely your side hustle from your main job, I wouldn't be surprised if you forget to take pictures. But comeon, now. Let's not be silly.

Below are the images in question. Notice anything?

I reduce water in the winter slightly, similar to cattleya. Light similar to cattleya. I move them into my cool-intermediate room during the winter (lows around 55) and keep them in the warmest area of my intermediate-warm grow room the rest of the year (85-90f high). I could probably get away with just keeping them in my intermediate-warm room.

[alecStewart1]

Asked a few vendors about Cym. goeringii culture recently, as I was looking to purchase one to give my Cym. sinese a buddy (at least that's how I justify the purchase )

Satomi from Seed Engei or japaneseorchids on Ebay:

Q: What are the upper and lower temperature limits this plant can tolerate? 5° to 40° Celsius?

A:

Yes they can tolerate wide range of temperatures. I keep them in my greenhouse where temp is 50F to 90F and notice winter is not too cold enough to spike well so moving to my second greenhouse that could get to 36F. I don’t do Celsius anymore as my equipment is all set to F.

Q: Is there a "best" medium for Cym. goeringii?

A:

The medium I’ve tried bark with perlite, pure Kanuma pure Akadama but ones in bark did better in my conditions. Mixture of Kanuma and bark works really well too surprisingly. I don’t think they are really picky, I think you just have to have right watering and temp.

Q: How often do you water? I currently have a variegated Cymbidium sinese that, now that it's warmer, I water every 4-5 days, usually 4 but it's growing indoors. It's starting to grow out new leaves, slowly. When it gets warmer outside consistently I'll put it out on the porch.
I've just heard goeringii are more particular or picky, so I wouldn't want to buy such a nice plant and then end up killing it. 😂

A:

I totally get it! Water every 4-5 days sounds good but all depends. During growing season I am pretty aggressive about watering. The best way to tell is Kanuma change to white from brown when it’s dry and thats when you water. Sometimes I do it every other day but usually 3-4 days during growing season. Overall they should do fine with same condition as sinese but blooming them nicely is another thing. That I need to move them outdoor

Andrew from Mystery Garden Store on Etsy:

Q: I was curious about a few things regarding Cym. goeringii. I've heard they're picky about their medium, and some people only use kiryu to pot them.

A:

the potting mix you ordered from us works for goeringii

Said potting mix description:

Premium Orchid Potting Mix includes New Zealand Tree Barks(树皮) + Pumice(浮石) + Kanuma Soil(鹿沼土) + Satsuma Tsuchi(植金石)

Q: The other thing is the temps they tolerate. Do they tolerate up to 30 degrees Celsius?

A:

not below 40F

Q: Nothing above 80F, too? So 40 - 80F is the temperature range.

A:

40-85F, indirect light and good air flow

Conclusions:

It seems like the 3 more well-known Jenosa Cymbidium subtypes have a bit more wiggle room with temps and substrate that I initially thought, but overall:

• Cym. ensifolium and sinese don't really need a cool period to initiate blooms, ensifolium likely even less so than sinese
• Cym. goeringii does need a cool/colder period to bloom
• The big 3 Jenosa subtypes seem to be able to tolerate up to 85, maybe even 90 degrees Fahrenheit, with ensifolium being the most heat tolerant. 40 is probably the lowest you should allow, but even then be cautious
• Jenosa subtype Cymbidiums do well in mixes that at least contain orchid bark, and then some mixture of a few other inorganics (the Japanese clay types and maybe some pumice)
• Jenosa subtypes like humidity, no real surprise there
• For watering Jenosa subtypes during growing season you can be more liberal with watering compared to the colder seasons, but they shouldn't always be wet. If you have a mix with Kanuma and Satsuma, you can watch for when it gets to almost white again to know when to water.

Hopefully this is useful for people. I'm sure there's still some things that are somewhat contestable. Again, everything still depends on where you're growing.

[Asian Cymbidium Empress]

The East Asian Cymbidium Mix (from japan) comes already mixed, will solve all these problems about the soil. It is ready to use with the correct pH (5.5.6-5). East Asian Cymbidiums (ensifolifum, sinense, kanran, goeringii, faberii) has very specific soil requirements. The soil is mixed with hard kanuma, yaki akadama in a specific ratio and specific pumice grain size to achieve the pH range and other properties. With other subsituted materials, I think the pH range is off and it is too dry around the roots, so they never bud. It has nothing to do with the temp. I don't know where people get the idea that they need cooler nights to bud or they are cool growers. In Taiwan, summer time is between 28C-32 C at all times with 100% humdity feeling like the 60C. In the fall, it is between 20C-25C. There is very temp change between the day and night, so I don't really understand where these ideas come from. Pretty much all the ensifolium and sinense are from Taiwan in the US/Canada. In my experience, when it is potted in Japanese Cym. mix, all these species just bud naturally without me doing anything as long as they are healthy. After they bud, you need to keep them cool or cold (depending on the species) so they can be bloomed successfully in late winter or spring.

Cym. ensifolium=they bud any bloom anytime anywhere from April to Nov.

Cym. sinense=bud in the fall, bloom next year Jan-Feb.

Cym. kanran=buds in sept-Oct, bloom in Dec and jan

Cym. goeringii= buds in late july, and blooms next year March

Cym. faberii=buds in august/sept, blooms next april.

goeringii, (tortisepalum, longibracteatum), and faberi are the species that require vernalization.

Sinense and kanran, once they bud, you just have to keep the plants on the cooler side (15C average) to maintain the buds before they bud.

Ensifolium, you do nothing, they just bud and bloom freely.

I am trying to explain that the temp fuzz is nonsense, I believe the potting soil is probably the most important factor to grow these East Asian Cymbidiums successfully. In Asian, at any given day, the diurnal difference is no more than 5C in any day, the temp rises slowly and decreases slowly throughout the year like staircase. If you have lived in Asia, you know.

You know where to find me on facebook and slippertalk if you need more information.

[ndam]

Originally Posted by alecStewart1

Asked a few vendors about Cym. goeringii culture recently, as I was looking to purchase one to give my Cym. sinese a buddy (at least that's how I justify the purchase )

Satomi from Seed Engei or japaneseorchids on Ebay:

Q: What are the upper and lower temperature limits this plant can tolerate? 5° to 40° Celsius?

A:


Q: Is there a "best" medium for Cym. goeringii?

A:


Q: How often do you water? I currently have a variegated Cymbidium sinese that, now that it's warmer, I water every 4-5 days, usually 4 but it's growing indoors. It's starting to grow out new leaves, slowly. When it gets warmer outside consistently I'll put it out on the porch.
I've just heard goeringii are more particular or picky, so I wouldn't want to buy such a nice plant and then end up killing it. 😂

A:



Andrew from Mystery Garden Store on Etsy:

Q: I was curious about a few things regarding Cym. goeringii. I've heard they're picky about their medium, and some people only use kiryu to pot them.

A:


Said potting mix description:


Q: The other thing is the temps they tolerate. Do they tolerate up to 30 degrees Celsius?

A:


Q: Nothing above 80F, too? So 40 - 80F is the temperature range.

A:


Conclusions:

It seems like the 3 more well-known Jenosa Cymbidium subtypes have a bit more wiggle room with temps and substrate that I initially thought, but overall:

• Cym. ensifolium and sinese don't really need a cool period to initiate blooms, ensifolium likely even less so than sinese
• Cym. goeringii does need a cool/colder period to bloom
• The big 3 Jenosa subtypes seem to be able to tolerate up to 85, maybe even 90 degrees Fahrenheit, with ensifolium being the most heat tolerant. 40 is probably the lowest you should allow, but even then be cautious
• Jenosa subtype Cymbidiums do well in mixes that at least contain orchid bark, and then some mixture of a few other inorganics (the Japanese clay types and maybe some pumice)
• Jenosa subtypes like humidity, no real surprise there
• For watering Jenosa subtypes during growing season you can be more liberal with watering compared to the colder seasons, but they shouldn't always be wet. If you have a mix with Kanuma and Satsuma, you can watch for when it gets to almost white again to know when to water.

Hopefully this is useful for people. I'm sure there's still some things that are somewhat contestable. Again, everything still depends on where you're growing.

Nghiep Dam (Southern California) 9/24/2024

I have a small collection of 20 Asian cymbidiums of Ensifolium, Kanran, Sinense, and Goeringii. Last year, the Winter of Southern California where I live reached 35 degrees a few times and I was able to keep my orchids outside under a covered roof patio. So, I think cymbidiums can tolerate near freezing point temperature as long as it is airy. About watering cycles, I think Asian cymbidiums are more sensitive with the potting media, especially with bark, in relation to the pot size. If you have a very tall cymbidium pot, using the Kanuma layer as an indication of the dryness of the pot mixture is misleading since the area in the center of the pot (majority of plant roots) could be still wet. This causes an increase of root rot problem if you are in hurry to water the plant. However, if the plant pot is kept airy with side holes, it may reduce the problem.