crispa vs. crispa cross

[weederwoman]

I have had two unmarked orchids bloom in the last two years that look to me to be similar to photos of cattleya(laelia) crispa. The first I posted here on orchid board for ID help in 3/2/2012. The second just bloomed. People thought the first was likely a crispa cross. I need some education as a beginner. What are the characteristics that make this a cross rather than a species. Are these seedling variations of the same plant? Thank you

Photos are in my flickr page below. Please ignore dendrochilum labella pix.

Flickr: noble's memory's Photostream

[AnonYMouse]

What you have are NoIDs and will remain NoIDs unless you can get the tags from the original source. Experts will compare the standard for a plant against yours. I don't get into Catt species so can't say what they saw. I don't think you can tell if two hybrids are from the same parents without the parent data.

More generally the reason folks called yours a cross is because there is no breeding history (division, crispa x self, crispa x sib., etc) to accompany your plants. For most hobby growers, its genetic history isn't important but for a breeder, wanting to register a cross from it, that information is required.

I'm not solid on the taxonomy and nomenclature but I think species variations are noted with "var. something" or "forma. something" (don't know the difference between the two) and hybrid variations are given capitalized names then quoted name (Hybrid Name "Red").

Hope that helps, if not, there is a more comprehensive discussion on names here.

Maybe someday, genetic testing will be inexpensive enough to test our plants. And when that day comes, I suspect we will be throwing out a lot of tags.

I know of a brindle labrador from a litter of black labradors!

[isurus79]

Like Anon said, you have a NoID, but you can often tell which species were used to create a cross (though in which percentages is the tough part) or even tell that a plant shows characteristics that are unique to a certain species and is likely said species.

Unlike many other orchid species, Laelia crispa has a fairly unique shape with very narrow petals and sepals, as well as a very frilly lip. The lip seems to protrude downwards in crispa more Laelia purpurata (which is really the only other species that you could confuse crispa with) and is less tubular in shape than purpurata. While there is some variation in color, the most common color pattern is that red/purple in the lower part of the lip with stripes going in towards the back of the "tube." Often there is a yellow coloration around the stripes.

Your fist picture seems to fit the description of a typical L. crispa pretty well which is why you got the answer that your plant is either crispa or a crispa cross.

The 2nd, 3rd and 4th pics (ie. the second plant) look similar, but the lip is quite a bit larger than the 1st which makes me think again that it is either pure crispa (possible, but the size of the lip makes me think not) or a crisp hybrid that is mostly crispa (highly likely). There is really no way to tell for sure without genetic testing. You'd be pretty safe to grow it as a crispa.

[POLKA]

Hey Weederwoman
Nice pictures

my two cents -- obviously, crispa is in there. Is this a first bloom? or just a first bloom for you? Can you go back to the folks you received this from?

Crispa generally has a bit less width, and more "crisped" edges to the petals. You definitely have the crispa lip. I Likeeeey!

It might just need to grow and bloom for you a couple of more times to see whether or not the crisped edges will show up, or not.

If not, I might be a seedling difference between kids, or it might mean that it is a hybrid with (probably) purpurata, or lobata.

Very nice
Thanks for sharing
Hope you get a more positive answer.

Noids can be very nice!

Take care
Rex
may all your orchids bloom like crazy!

[weederwoman]

These are first blooms for me, but the plants date back to the 1970's. The man who put them in the greenhouse I now care for was a collector in the wild. Unfortunately he is deceased, and the plants were very neglected for a long time. 1 and 4 are the same plant, and it has put up a single bloom off and on. This is the first bloom for plant 2,3 in many years. I have only taken over their care for 2 years, but I have been inside the greenhouse off and on for 20 some years. I have a partial list of some early plants, but no Brazilian Laelia on it. Recollecting and renaming the plants in the original collection has become my new hobby. I appreciate all your help. It seems the petals are too wide for a pure crispa species, I am learning, and not crimped enough? If I went with both being crispa x lobata would I be too far off?

[POLKA]

Hmmmm
collected in the wild?

What I would do is leave the tag as is, and add a note to it about being "maybe?" or "disputed," or "cross?"

Betcha it is okay as is. If the plant continues to recover, it will bloom better -- including more blossoms. I think crispa blooms like a purpurata with 3 to 7 on a spike. (I think)

Have you inventoried the whole collection? Any divisions available?

<just thinking with my fingers>
<grin>

Rex

[weederwoman]

There have never been any tags that I have seen, just some notecards in a box. This is not his main collection, that was at his house. These are some plants he put in the city greenhouse when it was built, as he was head of the parks department at that time. I'm sure he did not put in anything rare or valuable. Except for Cattleya Empress Bells, everything I know of for sure was a species, but I have a lot of mystery catt alliance plants that have yet to bloom. Both plants pictured put on 5 flowered spikes during my care. I'm guessing his main collection went to worthy people. His specialty was Mexican orchids, and I know he sent plants to Kew.
This is just a perfect task for me, interesting puzzles, but not being responsible for anything too important. I just last week ordered a lockhartia oerstedii and an isochilus linearis that were on the cards but lost years ago. Have to read up on their care. Its a great learning experience, and an excuse to buy more orchids.

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by weederwoman

If I went with both being crispa x lobata would I be too far off?

You'd be too far off to conclusively label your plants that way. Just be sure to label them in such a way so that the ID is not definite. Having mislabeled plants moving into other people's collections is really frustrating!!

[weederwoman]

I'll just call them crispa hybrids.