Diversity among selfed and sibling crossed C. species

[coirchlid]

Im looking particularly at a sibling cross of C. dowiana rosita and a self of C. warscewiczii semi-alba 'Katia'. Both from Exotic Orchids of Maui. How much variation can I expect among siblings resulting from these plants? How much difference can I expect between a cultivar and its selfed progeny? Although I am interested in the orchids named above, my question is for all Cattleya alliance species.

Does anyone have pictures or is able to refer me to online sources with pictures to help me answer my questions?

Thanks,
-Matt

[Bud]

The first orchid you mentioned is being sold by a very reputable grower called SVO=sunset valley orchids ...they have pictures and they have also culture and care for this plant...you may contact them for future questions you have since they are the ones doing the hybrid cross and selfing for this kind of orchid....

the second orchid you mentioned is sold by another reputable grower on Ebay code named: heaven6688.... you may also ask the growers/sellers of this plant what ever questions you have....

Sunset Valley Orchids - Grower and hybridizer of quality orchids, Vista CA

*for Ebay ....you need to go to the site; search for the seller 'heaven6688' and message them about the orchid you want and any questions you have regarding culture, crossbreeding and selfing

[Magnus A]

The only way tobe safe about the look of the offspring is meristem cloned plants or division.
For any seed grown plant you have no idéa how they will turn out, neither in color or flower shape. Remember that inbreading increase the risk of defects and mutations. You can be lucky but do not hope for to much if the plant has not bloomed and you know how they look like.

Also remember that all alba versions of orchids are not albino plants and the offsprings can have normal color pattern. Have not heard of this in Cattleya breading but for Paphiopedilum it is pretty common! (That seed propagating alba forms do not give alba offsprings.)

[isurus79]

Matt,
EOoM is a great nursery and they really do have amazing plants! I used to live in Hawaii and their nursery is spotless. As for the Catt. warscewiczii 'Katia', I've never seen a selfing of this one, only clones. I don't think you can find pics of a selfing to be honest, but it is stunning plant so you will probably get one you are happy with.

As for the Catt. dowiana 'Rosita,' a sib cross will give you more variety. Go to dowiana rosita - Flickr: Search to see some 'rosita' plants. The gene pool from which they are being bred from is pretty small, but the variety in shapes and colors is diverse, though they always seem to breed true 'rosita' colors.

Don't forget that many Catts will change colors from year to year, depending on the temperature in which they bloom. Check out difference of my 'rosita' (RIP) from 2009 to 2010:


Cattleya dowiana 6-21-2009 by Isurus79, on Flickr


Cattleya dowiana June 2010 by Isurus79, on Flickr

This plant was from H&R and it died when I moved away from Hawaii. I left my collection with a friend for a few months while I settled into my new home in Texas and the dowiana died. Anyway, I have another on the way from California in two weeks.

[POLKA]

Howdy
as I understood it, selfing a plant tends to set characteristics, while a sibling cross will tend to show hidden variety in their makeup.
Rex
aka POLKA

[catwalker808]

SOME SELFINGS OF ORCHID SPECIES CAN BE VERY GOOD.

Some may be inferior. Sometimes it is necessary to produce selfings of a species to successfully propagate it. More than 12 years ago, a hobbyist friend in Florida gave to us seed of a selfing of his C. dowiana (rosita). He does not take photos & the plant was so rare at the time, that very few people we knew had ever seen a live blooming plant … they had only seen book photos.

We successfully grew a test batch of a few hundred plants. As isurus79 pointed out, there was some variety, but the flowers were all beautifully colored rositas. Depending on the intensity of light & temps, the petal & sepal colors may vary. A newly opened flower may also be lighter. (It’s too bad isurus79’s friend let his plant succumb … it looked so nice & healthy.)


Many times, selfings can be very good, or sometimes the only reasonable way to propagate the species. For the next generation, selected sibling crosses are an alternative. Or, if unrelated plants can be found, outcrossing is also a good way to propagate species by seed. Species plants can be greatly improved by selective seed propagation. On the other hand, if offspring of selfings are selfed generation after generation, the subsequent generations may become weaker or develop genetic problems.



SEED PROPAGATED HYBRIDS CAN PRODUCE EXCELLENT OFFSPRING.

An experienced breeder, with excellent parent plants & a good breeding program can produce excellent hybrids. Many times, customers, who have bloomed one of our plants & had it awarded, have called to ask us if we would like to mericlone it. Almost always, we have declined … there are too many good ones … which ones do we clone? Instead, we can remake the cross, with equally good results, or do a similar new cross. Seed propagation is the key to developing excellent new plants. Where else would we get those select ones that people want to clone.

Naturally, customers are concerned that seed propagated hybrids come out looking good. Successful breeders are even more concerned. Their reputations & credibility are on the line … as well as their customers’ confidence.

It takes many years of breeding, growing & evaluating the offspring to achieve continued success in producing seed propagated orchid plants. A successful breeding program involves acquiring or developing superior breeding parents & testing how they breed as selfings or in combination with a variety of other plants. A successful breeder also needs the time & opportunity to grow & bloom the plants, to receive feedback for breeding on, or re-directing. Success can enable further success, but failures can also provide important information on pitfalls.


NOT ALL BREEDERS ARE THE SAME.

I always say that a near-sighted, color-blind bee, with a sinus problem, can pollinate an orchid & make a seed pod. That’s the easy part. A random breeder, or that near-sighted bee, could conceivably breed some good hybrids. But reliability & consistency takes time & experience to develop. Successful breeding is not a simple matter of crossing two nice flowers or two different sized plants.


THE SELLER OF AN ORCHID PLANT IS NOT ALWAYS THE THE BREEDER OR GROWER OF THE PLANT.

Even if they own a business & do some breeding of their own, the people SELLING specific orchid plants may not necessarily be the ones who BRED & PROPAGATED the plants. Many sellers buy plants from other growers, insert their own labels & sell the plants. There is nothing wrong with this.

Sellers may be on ebay, or they might even be nursery people. The buyer only assumes that the seller propagated & grew the plant & the seller lets you assume that. However, if you directly ask an honest seller if he bred the plant, he usually will admit to you that he did not. A few sellers may even tell you who the breeder was.

[POLKA]

Catwalker
I dare say that your reply is worthy of a "sticky" in the propagation and/or cattleya pages.

Rex

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by catwalker808

A few sellers may even tell you who the breeder was.

So do you know who is breeding EOoM's 'Katia' and 'Rosita?' I have a hunch....

[coirchlid]

Hi Catwalker,

Thanks for the wonderful information you have provided. I have a few questions.

- Why would it not be possible to produce mericlones of something like C. warscewiczii 'Katia'? I don't know much about how orchids are propagated in-vitro, but the little knowledge I have tells me that it should be possible.

- What is the genealogy of the cv. 'Katia'? What is the typical genealogy of currently available var. rosita plants? I read a recent post on this forum (I forget where it was unfortunately) that mentioned how the gene pools that breeders have to select from are often very limited. Considering the value of cultivars like 'Katia' it would make sense that this is a clone of a wild plant or from wild collected seed. This would make sense to me partly because of what you mentioned about simply remaking the intra-varietal cross instead of just selfing the 'Katia'.

- What would be the problems with using inbred plants (self and sib) for breeding, sibling crosses, or even selfing? It seems to me that selfing is basically a way to get these orchids to the typical consumer who is not willing to pay a few hundred dollars for a plant.

- If the plant is a self, does it really help to know who bred the plant? It seems that selfing isn't quite breeding, but perhaps some selection occurs upon removing weak seedlings from the flask, right?

Thanks,
Matt

[catwalker808]

coirchlid.
I see from your post on C dowiana that you live on the dry side of Oahu. Steve used to live in the wet mid section & we’re on the windward side, in god’s country. Funny that this discussion is going worldwide.

I’m sorry, I did not say that species such as C warscewiczii ‘Katia’ cannot be mericloned. We did mericlone ‘Katia’ about 10 years ago. The source plant was a division of the original ‘Katia’. We sold many of these mericlones & many have been blooming for a number years now. Many of the plants around today are probably our mericlones.

What I should have said was that it is much easier & more economical to produce seed propagated plants than to mericlone them. In addition, in the case of something like the C dowiana rosita, it was so rare that producing seedling plants was easier than possibly killing the mother plant by mericloning it. And making seedlings also enabled producing a variety of offspring, some of which may have been of better quality than the parent.

In the case of C warscewiczii, there are many plants of this species around … some very good. The reason that it makes sense for a commercial breeder to self ‘Katia’ is that the offspring carry the name C. warscewiczii ‘Katia’ x self & are associated with the prestige & aura of the parent plant. Someone who acquires a plant of the selfing might only have that plant & might make a second generation selfing. If I had a choice in the matter, I wouldn’t do that. If I could find a suitable plant for outcrossing, that would be preferable.

The problem with continued selfing or inbreeding of a species is that somewhere along the line the offspring can become very slow growing, weak, display unfavorable characteristics & possibly become infertile. (But I’m no expert in genetics).

It’s not absolutely essential to know who bred or propagated a particular plant. But there are certain advantages & some very important information behind who produced the plant. On OB, it’s interesting when someone describes where he or she purchased a plant. The buyer is clear on that. What the buyer doesn’t always know is who actually bred the plant. To give the seller credit for selling the plant is good. Assuming that the seller is the breeder is taking credit away from the rightful breeder. It’s a little like saying the automobile dealership that sold you your car also invented the automobile.

For growers & hybridizers, knowing the breeder’s name can also give information about the lines of breeding & quality of breeding. Reputable hybridizers would also be a bit embarassed to receive credit for someone else’s achievements.