Your Stance of Virus Testing ......

[peeweelovesbooks]

So what's your stance on virus testing?


As my law Professor liked to start off his horrendous hypotheticals with,

"Suppose for the purposes of argument," or when he was in a particularly foul mood, "Assuming, arguendo..."


......You were interested in buying some pricey divisions from a reputable orchid vendor. So, you call and ask if they offer virus testing and they flatly told you NO.


Which, in my mind, prompts several questions:


1) are we too concerned about viruses? I mean, these *are* plants were are talking about, and I think organic matter is going to contain diseases.

2) would you buy from said vendor????? The vendor informed me that there are more than 30 viruses in orchids, and UNLESS one used a very sophisticated method of testing, the current test gives too many false positives. Therefore, he does not virus test. Period.

I then asked him if he were willing to test for the two most common forms of viruses, and he flat out refused. He informed me that even if the plants were virused, it doesn't affect the quality of the blooms.

He also informed me that they are very careful, and that they don't reuse pots, change gloves every time they repot, use sterile cutting tools. And, the conversation ended by, "if you are so concerned about this, then don't buy from me."

I understand that some orchids *are* virused, but more often than not, the vendor flat out says, "Hey, this historical division tested positive for virus x, y, z, but it's a historical division. Do you still want it."

So, fellow orchid geeks--what is your stance on this issue? WWYD?

(I posted this on the Catt alliance forum and not on the general forum because my experience has solely been with Catt/ Laelia divisions).

M-

[Aceetobe]

I'm on the fence about it. There are certain plants where the virus plays an obvious deleterious affect on the health of the plant (Cymbidiums). There are others like Cattleyas, that usually don't show any symptoms, and others like Phals which only become affected when the culture is bad - and often go long lengths of time before they show symptoms.

I throw them out if they look bad, and I use clean technique. I'm sure some of my plants are virused. However, I have 1000 plants at least, so I can't possibly test them all....

It depends also what kinds of plant you're looking for. There are very few historical divisions that are clean of viruses. Recent divisions should be OK if the vendor is careful.

Its the vendors right to refuse to test it, but he's right you don't have to buy from him either. Being a biologist, his statement about false positives is flat out wrong. These tests are specific. There would be no mistaking one virus for another. The Agdia strips do have both a false positive and false negative rate, so you must take that into account. Ask him if you pay for the Agdia strip if he'll give you tissue to test it.

[Eyebabe]

Well, I am of the group that feels very strongly about virus testing.

I will use my own hypothetical:

You are interested in some blood because you are going to have major surgery and will be needing a transfusion of two units of blood.
We can virus test (among other things) the blood supply for Hepatitis A, B, and C as well as HIV.
These are known "deleterious viruses" which may not cause your immediate death but ....etc.
There are MANY MANY viruses in our blood supply we CANNOT test for; in reality, at one time, we did not have the capability of testing for Hep C or HIV.
Since we can't test for EVERY possible deleterious virus in the blood supply....we are going to forgo the cost of testing YOUR two units on reserve.
Because what the hell? We can't be sure of anything now can we!
Rest assured though that we use clean needles to collect the blood; furthermore, everyone that comes in to our blood bank looks really nice and cleancut...upstanding citizens etc.
Still wanna have surgery??

Thus the argument NOT to test is ridiculous imo.
Sure you have false positives; the purchaser of the plant should have the option of testing further IF they want to pay for it.
You can purchase your own tests and I always ask the vendor if I can send the plant back if it tests positive.
This has never been a problem....my experience has been very gracious yet surprising how many plants are in fact virused. I will double test positive plants at my expense as well.
I have several valuable plants currently testing virus negative and want to keep it that way.
I will tolerate CymMV if the plant is "special enough" s/a my division of Lc. Eva Robinson 'Ingram'
But ORSV...NO WAY.

In science we use what we have. We do not claim it to be perfect. If we waited for perfect, we'd never get anywhere.

[peeweelovesbooks]

Originally Posted by Aceetobe

I'm on the fence about it. There are certain plants where the virus plays an obvious deleterious affect on the health of the plant (Cymbidiums). There are others like Cattleyas, that usually don't show any symptoms, and others like Phals which only become affected when the culture is bad - and often go long lengths of time before they show symptoms.

I throw them out if they look bad, and I use clean technique. I'm sure some of my plants are virused. However, I have 1000 plants at least, so I can't possibly test them all....

It depends also what kinds of plant you're looking for. There are very few historical divisions that are clean of viruses. Recent divisions should be OK if the vendor is careful.

Its the vendors right to refuse to test it, but he's right you don't have to buy from him either. Being a biologist, his statement about false positives is flat out wrong. These tests are specific. There would be no mistaking one virus for another. The Agdia strips do have both a false positive and false negative rate, so you must take that into account. Ask him if you pay for the Agdia strip if he'll give you tissue to test it.

Thing is, I *did* offer to pay for the testing. During several points during the conversation I offered to pay for virus testing. He repeatedly refused. He even mentioned that he had too many plants to test, and I replied, "you may have a lof of plants, but I'm only requesting to purchase ONE of them." And, I mean, really, how many people regularly plunk down 500 bucks for a division?

I also understand that the further back you go, the higher the chance of virus in the plant, but I'm kind of surprised at his flat out refusal to test, even at my cost.

[Eyebabe]

Originally Posted by peeweelovesbooks

Thing is, I *did* offer to pay for the testing. During several points during the conversation I offered to pay for virus testing. He repeatedly refused. He even mentioned that he had too many plants to test, and I replied, "you may have a lof of plants, but I'm only requesting to purchase ONE of them." And, I mean, really, how many people regularly plunk down 500 bucks for a division?

I also understand that the further back you go, the higher the chance of virus in the plant, but I'm kind of surprised at his flat out refusal to test, even at my cost.

You are correct in that many of the old historic plants are virused; C.warscewiczii FMB for example.
So, knowing this, I would probably not be insisting for a virus free plant if this were my purchase.
If you have other valuable virus free plants, it is not worth the risk no matter how unusual the plant to take a chance of accepting one with color break(ORSV).
Furthermore, I understand that for breeding purposes, virused plants may not transmit the virus to their offspring. I believe there is much less likelihood as well if the virused plant is used just for pollen and not pod. Thus, if I were breeding and had a greenhouse to hold such plants, virus might also not matter so much.
However regardless, the vendor you are speaking of sounds like a jerk.
He sounds like someone I personally would NEVER buy a plant from.
Those who have no pride in what they do, have no pride period.

[peeweelovesbooks]

You are correct in that many of the old historic plants are virused; C.warscewiczii FMB for example.
So, knowing this, I would probably not be insisting for a virus free plant if this were my purchase.
If you have other valuable virus free plants, it is not worth the risk no matter how unusual the plant to take a chance of accepting one with color break(ORSV).
Furthermore, I understand that for breeding purposes, virused plants may not transmit the virus to their offspring. I believe there is much less likelihood as well if the virused plant is used just for pollen and not pod. Thus, if I were breeding and had a greenhouse to hold such plants, virus might also not matter so much.
However regardless, the vendor you are speaking of sounds like a jerk.
He sounds like someone I personally would NEVER buy a plant from.
Those who have no pride in what they do, have no pride period.

Eyebabe, I appreciate the responses!!!

Here's my deal. I am in no way, and doubt i will be, in the league of owning a F. Lambeau. I appreciate the plant for its beauty, but I would never want to own it because I know that all known specimens are virused.

I have no intention whatsoever of breeding or otherwise dividing my plants. I do this as a hobby--albeit an expensive one!! I appreciate the plants for their beauty and their rarity. Maybe one day I'll win an award, but if I don't, I don't care. I've always been a collector of things that I find beautiful. So, I "collect" divisions.

So, having said that, I don't care how rare it is--if it's sick then I don't want it. And, I've done enough research to know that I'll never own some plants for this very reason. The divisions I was looking at are relatively 'RECENT' in terms of the orchid world--nothing as far back and rare as a F. Lambeau (which by the way, goes for about 5k).

So, I was a little bit taken aback with this vendor's response. I've talked to other vendors (who sell other plants) that have said "no problem." And, as much as SBOE is maligned by some as being too pricey, they have always offered and actually done virus testing for me--even if the plant that I'm buying is 25.00. This is one of the main reasons I continue and will continue to buy from them.

So, I am so adamant about testing because I don't want to bring into my very small, modest collection something that can potentially harm it. I'm sure that for this vendor, my "collection" wouldn't be considered valuable in monetary terms, but it's really valuable to me.

And, you are so right, I will DEFINITELY take my business elsewhere.

I really do appreciate your feedback!

[Connie Star]

On advise from eyebabe, I ordered the Agdia test kits and have been testing some of my plants. I've only bought from a small number of vendors, so I'm "sampling" plants from different vendors. I had purchased an Onc. Sharry Baby that had some spots that concerned me. It tested negative for CymMV and ORSV, to my relief. So far of 6 tests I've done, two were invalid due to my fumbling the samples, and the other four were negative. I also sent three samples to Critter Creek labs and one was positive and the plant was discarded.
I have a small collection of about 70 plants I have spent more than I should have on, and I'll be durned if I'm going to risk an infection!!
The Agdia testing kit is pretty easy to do. Just don't put in too large a piece of tissue.
Personally, I think virus and disease testing is as important as other cultural issues.
I am however pretty OCD, so maybe not everyone would be as vigilant.

[Aceetobe]

People get pissed about those kinds of things. If he finds out from you that his division is virused, than he's somewhat morally obligated to tell other people about it that might be interested.

Its the same thing with chromosome counts. People get really upset when you tell them that their stud 4n is really a diploid.

As a vendor, it simply destroys the value of the plant

Given your statements on the price of it, etc, my guess is that he has tested it and it is positive.

[RobS]

In my working experience I did find false positives from the AGDIA strips (later confirmed negative by Elisa which is also not 100% reliable).

So I do understand this grower and I never ask for tests.

[Eyebabe]

Originally Posted by RobS

In my working experience I did find false positives from the AGDIA strips (later confirmed negative by Elisa which is also not 100% reliable).

So I do understand this grower and I never ask for tests.

When you combine a screening test that has high sensitivity with a follow up test that has a high specificity, your chances of a false positive are ridiculously low.
Thus, if the Agdia strip is positive(sensitive) and the plant is valuable, one should follow up with the second test(specific).
If the plant is that valuable and splits off $500 divisions every 2 years or so, I would think performing these tests and letting your purchasers know what was done would enable you to charge let's say... $550 without the client blinking an eye.
I agree with Aceetobe he probably knows already it is virused!
My experience with vendors and viruses however has been very positive so far.