Transferring C. aclandiae Seedling to Basket

[Louis_W]

I agree that the spotting on the leaves looks tipo to me. Coerulea tends to.be pretty clear with a greyish hue.

Coerulea is one condition havent been able to get straight genetically. It would make sense if there are several kinds that are incompatible. I havet heard any explination of how it works or how it breeds. Id love to know more

[MateoinLosAngeles]

Cattleya aclandiae has kind of an unpredictable root production pattern, so if you can wait, I would just watch until you see new roots. Kelpak might help.

I have repotted bifoliate Cattleyas at the wrong time and it's not necessarily a death sentence, but they might go into a sort of shock for as long as a year. In my experience, bifoliate Cattleyas can be as robust as unifoliate, the problem is that bifoliate are less expressive, they seem to do nothing for months on end and suddenly shoot some impressive growth to then go back to doing nothing. So you gotta kind of trust the cycle. Unifoliates are the "dogs" of Cattleyas, always telling you they love you, bifoliates are the "cats" looking at you, from the corner, mysterious, knowing they're in control and that you can't do anything about it, however, some may say their love is even more rewarding as it is scarce.

I think potting a Zygopetalum in LECA is a death sentence. I would like to meet someone who's had a Zygopetalum in LECA for at least 5 years to change my mind. They thrive in acidic media (bark, kanuma, sphagnum moss, etc.), the risk of LECA being excessively alkaline is too high imo.

---------- Post added at 01:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Louis_W

I agree that the spotting on the leaves looks tipo to me. Coerulea tends to.be pretty clear with a greyish hue.

Coerulea is one condition havent been able to get straight genetically. It would make sense if there are several kinds that are incompatible. I havet heard any explination of how it works or how it breeds. Id love to know more

At least for Phalaenopsis, it seems to be the case: Coerulea Compatibility Across Hybrids | Sapphire Dragon Orchids

If Rob's research on coerulea Phalaenopsis hybridizing is right, and if the same pathway applies to Cattleyas, there might be three types of Anthocyanin: A, B, and C. If A and B are absent you get the violet, coerulea, color. If C and either A or B are present, you get a more "indigo" coerulea, which might justify the presence of spotting on the leaves. I have seen completely coerulea C. schilleriana but all the "coerulea" C. aclandiae I've seen looked more "indigo" to me.

[MateoinLosAngeles]

Originally Posted by orchidman77

I do remember reading from Fred's notes to look for a "grey cast" on leaves (this implies coerulea flowers), and I've definitely seen this on my Gaudii. Maybe that's useful for aclandiae too!

I have a self-ing of the attached C. schilleriana from Fred and it does have a silvery cast on the leaves and no pigmentation whatsoever. However, I have some "coerulea" hybrids with pigmented dots. Haven't bloomed those yet, so whether they come out coerulea is TBD.

[MateoinLosAngeles]

Originally Posted by galguibra

There isn't a ton of medium in the pot to begin with and it seems pretty loose, so my intuition is that so long as the overall conditions aren't too different, it should probably be okay, since I wouldn't really be sticking those roots into anything new and there isn't a ton of bark in there with them as it is anyway.

Keep in mind that C. aclandiae really needs to let those roots breathe, more so than other orchids. I have mine on orchiata super (the chunkiest one), perlite #8, and in a basket, so very chunky stuff. Be careful not to "choke" those roots.

[galguibra]

Originally Posted by MateoinLosAngeles

Cattleya aclandiae has kind of an unpredictable root production pattern, so if you can wait, I would just watch until you see new roots. Kelpak might help.

I have repotted bifoliate Cattleyas at the wrong time and it's not necessarily a death sentence, but they might go into a sort of shock for as long as a year. In my experience, bifoliate Cattleyas can be as robust as unifoliate, the problem is that bifoliate are less expressive, they seem to do nothing for months on end and suddenly shoot some impressive growth to then go back to doing nothing. So you gotta kind of trust the cycle. Unifoliates are the "dogs" of Cattleyas, always telling you they love you, bifoliates are the "cats" looking at you, from the corner, mysterious, knowing they're in control and that you can't do anything about it, however, some may say their love is even more rewarding as it is scarce.

I think potting a Zygopetalum in LECA is a death sentence. I would like to meet someone who's had a Zygopetalum in LECA for at least 5 years to change my mind. They thrive in acidic media (bark, kanuma, sphagnum moss, etc.), the risk of LECA being excessively alkaline is too high imo.

---------- Post added at 01:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 AM ----------



At least for Phalaenopsis, it seems to be the case: Coerulea Compatibility Across Hybrids | Sapphire Dragon Orchids

If Rob's research on coerulea Phalaenopsis hybridizing is right, and if the same pathway applies to Cattleyas, there might be three types of Anthocyanin: A, B, and C. If A and B are absent you get the violet, coerulea, color. If C and either A or B are present, you get a more "indigo" coerulea, which might justify the presence of spotting on the leaves. I have seen completely coerulea C. schilleriana but all the "coerulea" C. aclandiae I've seen looked more "indigo" to me.

Your point about the pH is well-taken, but I actually got the idea from some other growers who've been growing Zygopetala and some other related genera in LECA long-term! I did a really obnoxiously long cleaning processing on the LECA including a lot of boils and soaks in distilled water, and the last time I soaked it, the TDS came out to ~10ppm after several days. Could've gone further, but at that point it seemed like diminishing returns. The LECA definitely still raises the pH of the nutrient solution as it wicks, but I did a series of initial tests before potting up the seedling and I've been pHing it down extra low at ~5.5 to start, like in DWC, so that it'll stabilize in the range of 6-6.5.

[isurus79]

Leaf color isn't a great indicator of whether or not a seedling's flower will be coerulea. But root tip color is most certainly a dead giveaway for eventual flower color.

[MateoinLosAngeles]

Originally Posted by galguibra

Your point about the pH is well-taken, but I actually got the idea from some other growers who've been growing Zygopetala and some other related genera in LECA long-term! I did a really obnoxiously long cleaning processing on the LECA including a lot of boils and soaks in distilled water, and the last time I soaked it, the TDS came out to ~10ppm after several days. Could've gone further, but at that point it seemed like diminishing returns. The LECA definitely still raises the pH of the nutrient solution as it wicks, but I did a series of initial tests before potting up the seedling and I've been pHing it down extra low at ~5.5 to start, like in DWC, so that it'll stabilize in the range of 6-6.5.

So, what benefit does LECA have to justify such a strenuous prep? Or are you doing it for fun/experimenting?

[Louis_W]

Originally Posted by orchidman77

So, I guess pigmentation in leaves/sheaths might work differently for bifoliates? With labiate cattleyas, they usually lack any spotting or pigmentation like albas. I have a coerulea Gaudii (tigrina x loddigesii) from SVO 2 years ago that has yet to bloom that will exhibit a little pigmentation on the developing growths, but I wouldn't call it red. I think the cross was done before with the same parents and yielded blue offspring. I'll have to wait and see for confirmation when it does bloom!

I dont think its so different. I have a few really dark plants that are pretty much solid red as they grow and they mature with a red outline and spotting. They also get darker green as you expose them to more light not lighter. The albas are totally clear and all my coeruleas are also clear and very light green.

I bet its like tipo plants. Very dark flowers are indicated by dark/a lot of pigments. Very dark saturated coeruleas probably have more speckles and maybe more of a grey caste. Mine are all very light and not very saturated (a little disappointingly) and they do noy show anything on the leaves. The photo from SVO looks like a rich dark one, so perhaps thats why the spots are visible

[galguibra]

Originally Posted by isurus79

Leaf color isn't a great indicator of whether or not a seedling's flower will be coerulea. But root tip color is most certainly a dead giveaway for eventual flower color.

Oh that's helpful to know! Do you have any specific info or resources on what kinds of patterns there are? I've definitely heard of root tips developing different colors in high light as the plant produces extra anthocyanins to protect them, but I'd be curious to know which color expressions in the root tips (or lack thereof?) are associated with which flower phenotypes

---------- Post added at 04:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:59 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Louis_W

I dont think its so different. I have a few really dark plants that are pretty much solid red as they grow and they mature with a red outline and spotting. They also get darker green as you expose them to more light not lighter. The albas are totally clear and all my coeruleas are also clear and very light green.

I bet its like tipo plants. Very dark flowers are indicated by dark/a lot of pigments. Very dark saturated coeruleas probably have more speckles and maybe more of a grey caste. Mine are all very light and not very saturated (a little disappointingly) and they do noy show anything on the leaves. The photo from SVO looks like a rich dark one, so perhaps thats why the spots are visible

That would make sense to me, yeah. If it clears anything up, I ordered the seedling from Seattle Orchids, and this is the picture they have for a mature plant, which does look pretty pigmented to me:



---------- Post added at 04:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:10 PM ----------

Originally Posted by MateoinLosAngeles

So, what benefit does LECA have to justify such a strenuous prep? Or are you doing it for fun/experimenting?

I mean at the moment I just wanted to try it out, but broadly speaking there's definitely a lot of benefits to LECA set-ups! Definitely a lot of work up front to clean everything properly, but you can do that in bulk and from there it's a very low-maintenance growing method overall with media that doesn't degrade and is very forgiving during reports. Whether or not it's appropriate for every plant is a different story, but for a cool-intermediate growing semiterrestrial I feel like it could be a good fit!

[Louis_W]

I grow everything in LECA (no zygos or acalandiae but a lot of species cats)

I just rinse the dust off