RLC. Hey Song ‘Siam Thunder’

[BON]

Would like any input; be it scientific fact or your personal opinion regarding the clone ‘Siam Thunder’ that shows the splashing/streaking color highlights in supposedly 5% of the clones of RLC. Hey Song. I swear it looks just like color break virus in Tulips, Camellias, etc. Do you think (or know) if the effect is viral? Again, my experience with Camellias is that the virus doesn’t harm the plant, but as it is a virus it can be spread to other plant. In fact I was told many years ago by. Camellia hybridizer that they would cut into a viruses Camellia, and then prune not infected plants to introduce the virus to other Camellias to create new bi-color varieties. I know virus, virus testing, and the sale or resale of tested or untested orchids can be a hot button, and I am not trying to flame any grower or nursery, but would like to know what others think about the clone, and why only 5% of cloned plants show the trait. Cloning does throw mutations, and some have been keepers of the years. Anybody own RLC. Hey Song that has the “splash” effect? Again, just wanting info, or even opinions.

[Roberta]

Do you have test kits? If not, you should get some. It's the only way to tell if the plant is virused - you totally cannot tell just by looking. This is a situation where opinions don't mean anything, you need to test.

[BON]

I don’t currently own the clone, so I can’t test it. Maybe you or someone else can tell me which tests are used for colorbreak viruses. (Angellonia flower break kit from Agdia?) I have tested many orchids for viruses, but not color break. Again, color break is a virus that has been purposefully used to infect non virused plants to make MORE VIRUSED PLANTS, that have a greater value than the non virused clone. I am not concerned about whether this orchid clone is virused or not, but I am trying to see what others may know or think regarding a mutation that reliably expresses itself in 5% of the cloned population. I am asking for any info, fact or opinion, as I have seen a flask for sale that probably contains fifty mericlones, of which 2 or 3 plants are expected to exhibit the “mutation”.

[estación seca]

If a virus were in a flask, almost all the plants would have it. The fact only a few have the feathering means it's not viral. Several different viruses can cause color break in various flowers. I don't know whether testing is available for them.

[BON]

Thank you both. My “thought” was if this is a virus that the pattern would not be limited to five out of every hundred clones. Wondering to about Dendrobium Enobi Purple ‘Splash’ if it also does not appear in all clones, or if it is 100% true. Since Rob Griesbach retired a few years ago, does anyone have a contact for someone doing similar work? Rob was at the USDA-APHIS Research Genetics in the Floral and Nursery Plants Research Unit conducting a broad-based research program in the plant genetics and breeding.

[nhbeek]

I have always thought that these "mutant" clones which are unable to be mericloned reliably are actually chimeras with two cell lineages with differing anthocyanin production existing within one plant.

There are some vague facebook posts from the nursery which produced a couple of these mutant RLC. Hey Song clones showing color bands extending up from the meristem of a new shoot all the way to the top of the leaf. They indicated that is a sign the flower produced from a particular growth will have the desired color pattern.

Furthermore some nurseries which have grown flasks of these clones to maturity have pictures of the resulting flowers - most solid color - and each presenting the exact shade of either the orange, yellow, or red portion of the mutant flower.


It is possible this effect is viral - though not cymmv, or orsv. It should be fairly easy to test that hypothesis by "grafting" a piece of one of these broken color clones into a solid color cattleya and see if the effect spreads. This used to be done purposefully to create "broken" tulips.

for reference:
Chimera (genetics) - Wikipedia

[Roberta]

Photos would help. The photos i found online of this cultivar show what I would consider "splash" - looking at a photo "pedigree tree" there are some ancestors that show some of that effect. (And it is very possible that specific ancestor plants could well have had more of it) Genetics can be complicated. I'd expect that if there were virus around it would affect the whole flask, not just a small percentage. I'd vote for genetics.

[jtrmd]

Only way to be positive is to test it. But I treat every Orchid I touch as if it's virused. Even those that show no symptoms

[BON]

nhbeek, Chimera, I should have thought of that. In African violets Chimera plants cannot be reproduced from a leaf, it takes using meristematic tissue from the crown. So as was pointed out genetics can be slightly complicated. I appreciate the discussion, and my thought is the pattern is not due to a virus. And my experience with fish is such that even if the genes are there to express something phenotypically it sometimes is dependent on certain environmental conditions to be expressed. So sort of a nature needing nurture to be realized. Simplest way for me to type it in a hurry is how a Cattleya flower that is red in the winter time (high light & cool temperatures) can be orange in Summer (lower light & high temperatures)

[Jmoney]

I don't know for sure, since I don't have one and it's not on the "list", although it is striking. I doubt it is virused. Especially if the vendor is saying only a small percentage shows the phenotype. Sounds like an unstable mericlone mutation. There are several cattleyas with varying types of mericlone splash/feathered mutations. There is also the well-known C. trianiae 'Jungle Feather' that shows feathering on the distal petal edges.