Genealogy for Two H&R C. walkeriana Compots

[thefish1337]

I'm going to pot mine up soon. Very similar potting mix. I'm going to try to grow my walkeriana a bit more vertically once I get to 4-5" pots to save space. I'm struggling with the horizontal crawling in my grow space from some of my walkeriana.

[K-Sci]

Originally Posted by thefish1337

I'm going to pot mine up soon. Very similar potting mix. I'm going to try to grow my walkeriana a bit more vertically once I get to 4-5" pots to save space. I'm struggling with the horizontal crawling in my grow space from some of my walkeriana.

How were you thinking of growing them more vertically?
-Keith

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by K-Sci

I created this thread hoping there are other walkeriana fanatics on the forum who may know the topic. I'm starting to think here aren't.

I should have been more explicit in my previous post. There really aren't any folks on OB that have a fairly good knowledge of walkeriana lineages. I consider myself fairly up to date on H&R lines, but the lineages become fairly obscured once you get back to Brazil. I've asked Harry about some of those aspects and like I said, he's pretty good about answering!

[K-Sci]

I got a reply from Harry. This is what I've got.

He confirmed that Tokyo #1 is a sibling of H&R & Puanani. That's consistent with his post on Blushed Cattleya walkeriana

"['Puanani' x 'Tokyo #1" is] a pretty good cross. Some background on it. Back in the 1980's, a Brazilian grower sent some C walkeriana semi-alba seed to a Hawaii lab. A relatively small number of plants were grown & bloomed, among them, plants which had these clonal varieties: H&R, Ann, Puanani, Tokyo #1.

These four were bloomed in Hawaii. One plant was bloomed by a Hawaii grower, who sold the plant which was given the clonal variety 'Tokyo #1' by its new owner in Japan. We received an AM/AOS for 'Ann', but it was not our best. 'H&R' & 'Puanani' were cloned by the respective owners."

He also wrote that an article he wrote that was published in Japan and Brazil concerning the source of the pre-1970 seedlings may be sent to Orchid Digest. I'm not sure what this means given there are both 1980 and 1970 dates above.

He also had a correction. 'Sakura Snowblush" is a sibling of 'Sakura Snowball' and 'Perfect Blush' rather than the cross of these two as the name might suggest.

A second correction he made was that the 'Tokyo #1 he used in breeding the first compot in the OP was diploid. For reasons I do not recall I was 100% certain that both parents were tetraploid. This means the first compot I described in the OP is triploids, and therefore infertile. I will thus be selling the plants when I need the space.

-Keith

[thefish1337]

Originally Posted by K-Sci

I got a reply from Harry. This is what I've got.

He confirmed that Tokyo #1 is a sibling of H&R & Puanani. That's consistent with his post on Blushed Cattleya walkeriana

"['Puanani' x 'Tokyo #1" is] a pretty good cross. Some background on it. Back in the 1980's, a Brazilian grower sent some C walkeriana semi-alba seed to a Hawaii lab. A relatively small number of plants were grown & bloomed, among them, plants which had these clonal varieties: H&R, Ann, Puanani, Tokyo #1.

These four were bloomed in Hawaii. One plant was bloomed by a Hawaii grower, who sold the plant which was given the clonal variety 'Tokyo #1' by its new owner in Japan. We received an AM/AOS for 'Ann', but it was not our best. 'H&R' & 'Puanani' were cloned by the respective owners."

He also wrote that an article he wrote that was published in Japan and Brazil concerning the source of the pre-1970 seedlings may be sent to Orchid Digest. I'm not sure what this means given there are both 1980 and 1970 dates above.

He also had a correction. 'Sakura Snowblush" is a sibling of 'Sakura Snowball' and 'Perfect Blush' rather than the cross of these two as the name might suggest.

A second correction he made was that the 'Tokyo #1 he used in breeding the first compot in the OP was diploid. For reasons I do not recall I was 100% certain that both parents were tetraploid. This means the first compot I described in the OP is triploids, and therefore infertile. I will thus be selling the plants when I need the space.

-Keith

Harry likes to 'protect' his breeding lines by making triploids. I constantly flip flop on whether or not I agree with it fundamentally, but it's his business ultimately what he does with his hard work. I think that due to the number of times Tokyo no. 1 has been mericloned many collectors have 4N mutations of the plant. For example, Fred Clarke has one in his picture database. Given the overall quality of walkeriana breeding in the US I hope that the 4N crosses H&R has been releasing will help others breed more plants. Some of the lines Harry has are so old and so heavily selected upon I think that many could benefit from a good out crossing with some modern Brazilian breeding.

Take a look at this collection by Brazilian grower Daniel Neubauer:

[Shadeflower]

Originally Posted by K-Sci

Wakeriana require higher light levels than most other Cattleyas to flower. I've had difficulty arranging this.

So as much as a C Nobilior or even more?

C Nobilior as far as I'm aware can easily handle 6000 fc so full noon sun basically.

Is it the same? More? Less? I'm sure you might have even mentioned it somewhere but if you have a comparison to a nobilior by any chance just because they seem to be able to handle a lot of light.

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by thefish1337

Harry likes to 'protect' his breeding lines by making triploids. I constantly flip flop on whether or not I agree with it fundamentally, but it's his business ultimately what he does with his hard work.

I know Roy does this with his amethystoglossas, not sure that Harry does this with walkeriana.

Originally Posted by Shadeflower

So as much as a C Nobilior or even more?

You can grow walkeriana and nobilior under the same light conditions.

[K-Sci]

Originally Posted by Shadeflower

So as much as a C Nobilior or even more?

They are known to grow in full sun in their natural habitat, though I'm sure it isn't optimal. Per Harry Akagi of H&R Nurseries:

There is also a myth that C walkeriana plants grow in full sunlight throughout the year. Perhaps this is largely perpetuated by published photos of plants blooming on bare trees during their rainless winter season. Those same leafless trees are in full leaf during the summer rainy period. & provide lots of shade. The trees are leafless during the cooler winter months."

C Nobilior as far as I'm aware can easily handle 6000 fc so full noon sun basically.

By easily handle do you mean "do well in", or "survive in"? I'm doubtful that these are the same.

I'm growing them the same as walkerianas. have three C. Nobilior, but they are recent acquisitions (one purchased and two bonus plants) I haven't grown them before and thus, I can't address your question from practical experience.

I haven't had my greenhouse here in Mississippi for a full year, so I don't have a track record here for the walkeriana. What I'm giving them now through winter is pretty intense winter light (~400fc-6000fc) that drops off considerably after 2:00pm due to roof shading. This summer I gave them somewhat less (3500fc-4000fc) during the Mississippi summer heat, which peaks at around 95-100F with nights usually 75F or less.

How I'm growing them now is with much more light than when I grew them in my greenhouse 20 year ago. That was just south of Seattle where it is continuously overcast, sometimes for months, during the winter. I had trouble flowering them there.

BTW, I have one walkeriana in bud now, much earlier than I expected. We still have summer weather here most days, and walkeriana usually bloom fall to winter. Most of my other walkeriana have initiated a second growth for the season, which is exciting, but it is too soon to know whether the growths are a season's second growth, or flowering growths.

Nobilior are far more likely to grow bifoliate and flower from the apex of the psuedobulb rather than (usually_ from specialized growths on the stem.

-Keith

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by K-Sci

Nobilior are far more likely to grow bifoliate and flower from the apex of the psuedobulb rather than (usually_ from specialized growths on the stem.

This is pretty rare!

I've seen more coerulea walkerianas (this color variety does it more often than other colors for some reason) blooming from the apex than I've seen nobiliors blooming like this.

[K-Sci]

Originally Posted by isurus79

I know Roy does this with his amethystoglossas, not sure that Harry does this with walkeriana.

At this time Harry has the 'Sakura Snowblush' 4N x 'Perfect Blush' 4N compot for sale.

Last November, Harry sent me an email which included this:

"Until recent years, we protected most of our identified 4N plants and only used them for breeding to make many superior 3N crosses. It cost us many many years and lots of R&D costs. We are now getting on in years and no longer feel the need to protect these plants as breeding parents. Consequently, we have been producing and releasing a number of 4N crosses ... such as the 4N selfing you purchased."

Personally, I would want to sell my breeders for good money to others interested in continuing their lines and I would write about my decades of orchid breeding to document a legacy of accomplishment such as Harry's. I wouldn't want what I learned and did to be lost after full retirement.

-Keith

---------- Post added at 06:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:13 PM ----------

Originally Posted by thefish1337

Take a look at this collection by Brazilian grower Daniel Neubauer:
<SNIP>

Wow. I wish I understood the language. Maybe I'll try running it through a text to speech then auto-translation program.
-Keith