Oddball Breeding

[Jmbaum]

Hey everyone,

I’m wondering if you know anyone that has been doing oddball/ novelty breeding with Cattleya alliance (or any others)? Strange growth habit or remarkable pseudobulbs (think schomburgkia x coilostylis parkinsoniana), or unusual flower forms (spot, stripes, large and ugly even), or just unconventional inter generic crosses for improved temperature tolerance or drought tolerance.

Thanks!
Jeffrey

---------- Post added 04-09-2021 at 12:13 AM ---------- Previous post was 04-08-2021 at 11:39 PM ----------

Also I just pollinated my Epicatt Rene Marquez ‘Tyler’ with pollen from Oerstedella (Epidendrum) tetraceros, any thoughts on what kinda of viability it may have? I thought it would be interesting if it pans out.

[Fairorchids]

All the species in the Cattleya family have the same number of chromosomes, so interbreeding is theoretically possible. However, in reality not everything works.

Some pods never start; but more often they fail after 2-6 weeks. Some of the failed combinations I have tried:
Complex spotted hybrid onto Prosthechea prismatocarpa.
C. (Laelia) pumila onto Prosthechea garciana.
C. (Laelia) pumila onto Epidendrum ellipticum.
C. (Laelia) pumila onto Rosy Jewel (= Gua. bowringiana x Broughtonia sanguinea).

However, when I tried C. loddigesii onto Rosy Jewel, it appears to work (pod is at 75 days now).

[Jmbaum]

Thanks, that is very good to know. Is there a thread... or book on orchid genetics you’d recommend? Something not centered on cut flowers or Phalaenopsis ‘ideals’.

Prosthechea prismatocarpa looks to have an interesting pseudobulb shape. I’m still on the search for a data base of orchids by plant forms and interest rather than just by flower. Thought somebody would have done this by now. All that most sites recommend are jewel orchids **yawn**There are such incredible plant forms and colorations. I spent weeks finding a variation is Phal. Schilleriana from one island with the strongest bars across the leaf (greatest predisposition among the population of seedings) nobody had this sort of information available. The more we focus on the plant itself, the less generally people will view orchids as difficult and disposable. Since the habit of so many species is small and specialized... and being destroyed, I view it as vital to generate more compassion and interest. Also more year round interest would be a better look for a collection of plants.

Originally Posted by Fairorchids

All the species in the Cattleya family have the same number of chromosomes, so interbreeding is theoretically possible. However, in reality not everything works.

Some pods never start; but more often they fail after 2-6 weeks. Some of the failed combinations I have tried:
Complex spotted hybrid onto Prosthechea prismatocarpa.
C. (Laelia) pumila onto Prosthechea garciana.
C. (Laelia) pumila onto Epidendrum ellipticum.
C. (Laelia) pumila onto Rosy Jewel (= Gua. bowringiana x Broughtonia sanguinea).

However, when I tried C. loddigesii onto Rosy Jewel, it appears to work (pod is at 75 days now).

---------- Post added at 09:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 AM ----------

Also I hope the pollination takes, I think the Rene Marquez as pod parent was the right choice, being that it a more substantial plant and would be very interesting to see how strongly the pseudoepidendrum would come through.

[Abe1997]

Hello, I do some work on bifoliate Cattleya. Particularly the more unusual color forms. Cattleya like schofieldiana I was originally interested in for their long and skinny pseudo bulbs. They look like skinny bamboo stalks and on a bench are very nice to look at despite the lack of flowers.

Some books that have helped a ton along the way are:
Breeding Dendrobiums in Hawaii - the focus of this book is obviously dendrobiums, but the genetic principles apply to all orchids. For what you are aiming to do, I highly recommend rigorous study of the chapter on genome breeding.

Home Orchid Growing- not sure what your background in genetics looks like, I recommend this book as a primer. This is the clearest and simplest to understand explanation of the process of orchid reproduction I have yet to see.

Also, the internet is chock full of information, old publications and papers. I have compiled so much information with searches on google scholar and the like. Most of the information you are looking for will be out there in some form or another, just takes time and patience sorting through everything. Unfortunately, a database like the one you mention will probably never be compiled as it would take many breeders feeling comfortable with sharing their due diligence and years of trial and error with people who have not done the same. Personally, when I first started breeding I wished to have that information and even the best of mentors were hesitant to spoon feed it to me. I am now so great full for this and would be resistant to putting all that hard work out there for free.

Good luck with this!

[Jmbaum]

Thanks! The breeding of bifolate bamboo-esc Catts seems like a worthwhile path indeed. Do you have photos of them, and did you only stay inside Cattleya?
That was sort of my intent in pollinating the Rene Marquez Tyler with Oerstedella (Epidendrum) tetraceros, make the the pseudobulbs more numerous and thinner, plant more free flowering, while preserving the pseudoepi’s impactful flower coloration and substance.

I’m currently in school studying a space between ecology an genetics, so I’m still learning, but apt to read as much as I can. I comb through papers I find online, most of the research is centered on flowers solely, and only qualities to appeal to commercial endeavors. The abstract I tended to find more helpful than the research itself. I’ll look into those books you recommended, it is helpful to read thing that are slightly less specifically floracentric.

While I sympathize with the time and resources breeders have put in, seems a shame to never share that knowledge. I suppose that is why I enjoy published research, because it makes it better for everyone studying those same things, stimulates the innovation and healthy of the hobby as a whole. It is sad to think that so much information would be lost along with the titans of breeding. Part of my draw to joining OB was hoping it was going to be no holds on information on our common passion. It’s complicated overlaying concerns of proprietary knowledge and wanting people to carve their own path in breeding.

The OrchidRoots format is a good start, but increasing the scope to include the range of plant habit and flower forms present in the seedling populations would be helpful. What becomes interesting is the choice of the breeder as to which progeny is chosen to move forward.

The timeline of orchid breeding as a whole is incredibly humbling. The point is pollination, arriving at first bloom and all the pitfalls along the way. I imagine it’s quite disheartening to end up with a cross the has none of the desired traits whatsoever.

Thank you for the book recommendations and all other information, I’ll see if I can access them online or if their are copies available. If you happen to think of anyone doing novel breeding that has photos or would like to talk I’d be interested to hear.

I’ll let you know if the pollen takes.

Originally Posted by Abe1997

Hello, I do some work on bifoliate Cattleya. Particularly the more unusual color forms. Cattleya like schofieldiana I was originally interested in for their long and skinny pseudo bulbs. They look like skinny bamboo stalks and on a bench are very nice to look at despite the lack of flowers.

Some books that have helped a ton along the way are:
Breeding Dendrobiums in Hawaii - the focus of this book is obviously dendrobiums, but the genetic principles apply to all orchids. For what you are aiming to do, I highly recommend rigorous study of the chapter on genome breeding.

Home Orchid Growing- not sure what your background in genetics looks like, I recommend this book as a primer. This is the clearest and simplest to understand explanation of the process of orchid reproduction I have yet to see.

Also, the internet is chock full of information, old publications and papers. I have compiled so much information with searches on google scholar and the like. Most of the information you are looking for will be out there in some form or another, just takes time and patience sorting through everything. Unfortunately, a database like the one you mention will probably never be compiled as it would take many breeders feeling comfortable with sharing their due diligence and years of trial and error with people who have not done the same. Personally, when I first started breeding I wished to have that information and even the best of mentors were hesitant to spoon feed it to me. I am now so great full for this and would be resistant to putting all that hard work out there for free.

Good luck with this!

[Fairorchids]

As mentioned by Abe1997, many breeders are understandably reluctant to share their hard earned knowledge. Having said that:

A few of the breeders truly understand the genetics, but most do not (or have only a rudimentary understanding). Thus, a lot of the breeding is 'seat of the pants - guided by some experience'.

Secondly, books on this subject would have a very limited target audience. Most growers are perfectly content to grow their favorite plants, but their eyes glaze over when a discussion turns to advanced breeding & genetics.

This is unfortunate, since a vast knowledge is lost every time a nursery closes (or the proprietor passes on). The current number of nurseries with a breeding program is a pale ghost of yesteryear, so we have already lost a significant volume of irreplacable data.

Perhaps the AOS should step up to the plate, and provide a platform for this type of information?

[Jmbaum]

Yes, the resources it takes to traditionally publish a book for retail is enormous, that it why often we are relegated to exchanging information on these forum, even though this is not in the least new tech.

I think it would be beneficial for the AOS to provide an open source, on genetics and hybridization. I'm not sure at moment there much place to go after a strong 100 years of orchid propagation, unless they innovate the approach and archive the information being lost. Also there is something to say about preserving the cultural history of plant societies. I'd be certain disaster for the hobby if only what commercial valuable survives.

I don't think it would be all that difficult to pull together the information. Maybe, I write to OrchidRoots and AOS gauge potential since they already have the digital infrastructure.

Originally Posted by Fairorchids

As mentioned by Abe1997, many breeders are understandably reluctant to share their hard earned knowledge. Having said that:

A few of the breeders truly understand the genetics, but most do not (or have only a rudimentary understanding). Thus, a lot of the breeding is 'seat of the pants - guided by some experience'.

Secondly, books on this subject would have a very limited target audience. Most growers are perfectly content to grow their favorite plants, but their eyes glaze over when a discussion turns to advanced breeding & genetics.

This is unfortunate, since a vast knowledge is lost every time a nursery closes (or the proprietor passes on). The current number of nurseries with a breeding program is a pale ghost of yesteryear, so we have already lost a significant volume of irreplacable data.

Perhaps the AOS should step up to the plate, and provide a platform for this type of information?

[estación seca]

The AOS is a volunteer organization. It won't get done unless somebody steps forward.

[Jmbaum]

Hi everyone
Just wanted to do a five week update on this seedpod, wondering if it looks correct given the timeline.

Also who is doing is doing great flasking services?

Thinking of crossing my Epidendrum parkinsonianum that is blooming now with Epi. pseudoepidemdrum or Leptotes bicolor (4n)
Let me know what you think, will the 4n cause any difficulty or have a bearing on the direction of the cross?

[Louis_W]

How is your pod doing? I appreciate your intent to breed for qualities besides flower quality. I love flowers but orchids have more than one dimension of interest to me as well.

2016 - Roy Tokunaga (Tetraploid Breeding) 6th Annual Cattleya Symposium - YouTube

This is a video from Roy Tokunaga from Hawaii. He seems to be generously relinquishing some information which he kept secret for a long time. It's quite enlightening

I didn't understand everything he was saying but I gather that breeding 4n to 2n works just fine. You'll end up with a 3n cross which will have similar advantages to a 4n plant but it will be sterile.

3n plants, according to Roy, are a good product for a breeder to sell. High quality plants for collectors but sterile so other breeders cant use your lines. He figured all this out so that he could propagate by seed and save money on cloning. It's a very interesting lecture and I'm sure you could take the logic and apply it to achieve any qualities you want.

That said, he did some major groundwork to
Get his breeding lines where he wanted them. Selfing to isolate genes takes the chance out of things. Seems like you can keep it simple and just make the cross and see what you get. Or you can go deep and understand how to get exactly what you want. Either way, good luck!