Cattleya Heathii OR not?

[terryros]

Cattleya Heathii OR not?

Cattleya Heathii (loddigesii x walkeriana) was registered with the RHS in 1907. There have been 12 AOS awards for flower quality to this hybrid, with the first in 1999 and the most recent in 2016. I obtained my Heathii plant from Orchids Limited some years ago as (loddigesii ‘Shorty’ x walkeriana ‘The Chairman’).

However, in recent years walkeriana ‘The Chairman’ was reported to have come from the cross (walkeriana ‘Pendentive’ x walkeriana ‘Tokyo No. 1’) and some experts think that ‘Pendentive’ is actually Cattleya dolosa (loddigesii x walkeriana). Yet, ‘Pendentive’ is still listed as a 1977 awarded Cattleya walkeriana (Alba) by AOS. Here are two posts from Orchid Board about the messy situation with ‘Pendentive’ and some other prominent walkeriana cultivars.

C. walkeriana (not) ‘Kenny’ - Orchid Board - Most Complete Orchid Forum on the web !

Walkeriana 'pendentive'

If ‘The Chairman’ is actually (dolosa x walkeriana), it becomes Cattleya Tsiku Taiwan, which was registered as a hybrid in 2000.

I don’t find evidence questioning the legitimacy of loddigesii ‘Shorty’ so my plant could be (Tsiku Taiwan x loddigesii) which is not a registered hybrid. It would be 62.5% loddigesii and 37.5% walkeriana compared to the 50% split that Heathii would be.

This is the fourth time my currently six-growth plant has bloomed. The inflorescence has always been axial, has never had a sheath, and has always had two flowers. Growths have been either unifoliate or bifoliate with thin pseudobulbs. The current blooming growth is bifoliate and measures about 30 cm from the surface of the potting material to the horizontal leaves.

The flowers did not develop fragrance to my nose until they had been open for a week. The fragrance is still subtle today and not either the described “baked milk chocolate” fragrance of loddigesii or the vanilla/cinnamon of walkeriana. I would say the fragrance is just pleasingly floral.

Here is a picture of the top of the plant. The flower is about 11.0 cm in horizontal natural spread.

[SouthPark]

That flower looks great terry. I particularly like the tidy neat closed side-lobes, and the colours. The lip has a nice shape too.

[isurus79]

Heathii denotes a 50-50 hybrid (aka a primary hybrid), which (as you've already discussed) isn't the case for your plant. While the label is officially Heathii, the plant isn't. Such is life with walkeriana in the USA. Still a beautiful flower though!

[terryros]

And I realize it is difficult for AOS or RHS to get to the point of changing an awarded plant categorization. I don't think there is a particular body that would decide that 'The Chairman' now must be named differently. They did it with 'Kenny' but some others are still just floating.

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by terryros

And I realize it is difficult for AOS or RHS to get to the point of changing an awarded plant categorization. I don't think there is a particular body that would decide that 'The Chairman' now must be named differently. They did it with 'Kenny' but some others are still just floating.

I think the Chairman is just one of many, many that need to be renamed.

The problem is that the AOS still doesn't accept that 'Orchidglade' and its progeny 'Pendentive' is dolosa. Trust me, I've tried.

---------- Post added at 12:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 PM ----------

Basically, almost all alba's are offspring of either 'Orchidglade' or 'Pendentive' and should be considered suspect.

I've got an amazing alba, but its got Estrella da Colina as a parent so it has some loddigesii background in it. It even appears like pure walkeriana vegetatively and morphologically (flowers). Looks great though! Check it out:

Cattleya walkeriana ‘Estrela da Colina’ x sib by Stephen Van Kampen-Lewis, on Flickr

[thefish1337]

The longer that US orchid sellers keep distributing "Kennys"/"The Chairman"/"Pendentive" as real Cattleya walkeriana the more our friends in Brazil and Japan will laugh at us. Its getting embarrassing that people would rather self, cross or mericlone decades old awarded plants when the genetic development in Brazil is literally decades beyond what we have here in the US. They have entire societies dedicated to just this one plant. I don't know how you can look at 'Pendentive' as a judge and tell yourself "that looks like a Cattleya walkeriana", Estrella da colina is one thing- 'Pendentive' is just cringe.

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by thefish1337

The longer that US orchid sellers keep distributing "Kennys"/"The Chairman"/"Pendentive" as real Cattleya walkeriana the more our friends in Brazil and Japan will laugh at us. Its getting embarrassing that people would rather self, cross or mericlone decades old awarded plants when the genetic development in Brazil is literally decades beyond what we have here in the US. They have entire societies dedicated to just this one plant. I don't know how you can look at 'Pendentive' as a judge and tell yourself "that looks like a Cattleya walkeriana", Estrella da colina is one thing- 'Pendentive' is just cringe.

[SouthPark]

terry ----- true. Uncertainty leads to this sort of situation. Although, names are pretty much an invention of people. And so is 'classification', and 'awards'.

I can see the point of awards for business/trade purposes and also for friendly competition - all in good fun.

I'm free of that sort of thing, as I don't collect orchids for their awards or name. I just collect due to their nice flowers and their plant structures/behaviour/shapes.

But ----- as for Heathii and Dolosa ----- which you typed as having the same parents in the cross ------ does this mean that Dolosa is the accepted name for the cross these days? Accepted by RHS that is.

[terryros]

Do you agree that there is no chance that I could register this as a new hybrid as long as AOS still has 'The Chairman' as an awarded walkeriana?

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by terryros

Do you agree that there is no chance that I could register this as a new hybrid as long as AOS still has 'The Chairman' as an awarded walkeriana?

First, I want to mention that the AOS is not a taxonomic authority and you wouldn’t register a hybrid with them. That said, you’d have an uphill battle convincing the RHS the Chairman is a hybrid. While the provenance of that plant is likely not ‘pure’ determining the exact configuration of introgression is very, very tough.