Cattleya walkeriana and nobilior -- down the rabbit hole

[Keysguy]

I have a high level of confidence in Alan

As do I. Thanks for your input Kim.

[Fairorchids]

And let me add, there are tipos, coeruleas, semi-albas and albas in virtually all the other Cattleya species. To reject semi-albas in C. walkeriana only makes no sense to me.

[Clawhammer]

Originally Posted by isurus79

Long story short, almost all walkeriana albas in the USA are hybrids. Also, Pendentive is only still a controversy in the USA. Brazil and Japan are solid in their stance that it's a hybrid, which is good enough for me.

Miranda just got some new plants in stock, including nobilior. H&R has amazing nobilior and walkeriana. There are some good representatives from both species on eBay on a fairly reliable basis.

Also, I'm not sure how I missed this thread for so long! These are two of my favorite species!

Thanks for the tip on Miranda's, I couldn't resist placing an order (1 each coerula nobilior and walkeriana). Fair prices and Free shipping! Did you see they have Iricolor? I think I remember you commenting you wanted one of those for the fragrance...

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by Clawhammer

Thanks for the tip on Miranda's, I couldn't resist placing an order (1 each coerula nobilior and walkeriana). Fair prices and Free shipping! Did you see they have Iricolor? I think I remember you commenting you wanted one of those for the fragrance...

I didn't notice the iricolors! I've ordered too many things this year though. Can't do anymore! lol

---------- Post added at 08:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Fairorchids

I am in no position to answer 100% yes or no to that question.

However, Gold Country Orchids (Alan Koch) is selling semi-albas, which I believe are at least in part based on Japanese breeding stock. I have a couple, which I have grown from fairly small seedlings; the largest is nearing BS now.

I have a high level of confidence in Alan, so I am leaning towards a yes.

Alan is great! I'm not super confident on his walkeriana breeding stock though. Looks like some of his breeders have loddigesii in them. For example, check out "The Chairman."

---------- Post added at 08:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 PM ----------

You can definitely get to semi-alba in walkeriana without assistance from loddigesii

[SouthPark]

I think as long as there is no cheap, effective, fast, accurate etc DNA testing and comparison method --- and if an orchid flower has features that fit walkeriana descriptions ---- then maybe the main questions will be --- why or how important is getting a 'pure' walkeriana (as in not cross between two varieties of same species)? And are we looking for particular sorts of flower features? Or we're just strongly fixed on needing a 'pure' walkeriana regardless of the flower appearance?

Some collectors might be just interested to get pure species for some reason (single variety, not variety crosses). Some breeders might need 'pure' for their breeding reasons/processes. Some home growers probably don't care - as long as the flower has the features of what they want to watch.

I'm sure that if I ever get to grow walkeriana, I would get some from various sources ----- with no importance about whether it's 'pure' or not. Just mainly on getting some variety for watching enjoyment (of the flowers and the plants themselves). And it will also be likely that the more we collect, then at least 1 or some will be 'pure'.

But not being a breeder, I would place no emphasis on 'pure' etc, as that is starting to get a bit 'racial' prejudice maybe. I think I will just get in there (in future, as I'm out of growing space for now) and buy some for enjoyment of growing and watching.

[Fairorchids]

A walkeriana is pure as long as it does not result from breeding with another species.

Sib crosses between varieties are still true walkerianas - just not pure semi-albas, coeruleas, or whatever.

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by Fairorchids

A walkeriana is pure as long as it does not result from breeding with another species.

Sib crosses between varieties are still true walkerianas - just not pure semi-albas, coeruleas, or whatever.

Indeed! However, sib crosses with loddigesii backgrounds or with plants/flowers displaying traits commonly associated with a hybrid are still hybrids or are suspect hybrids.

Example: C.w. 'The Chairman'

[Leafmite]

I think that DNA testing will be the only way that one can be absolutely positive whether an orchid 'species' is truly a species when there is some doubt. Our orchid society just had Tim Culbertson speak about Laelia anceps (Zoom) and, from all the pictures he showed, it is quite amazing to see how different the jungle collected versions are from the others, as well as all the differences in the variations. With mutations (i.e. 4n Mendenhall) and selective breeding, a Cattleya can really change from the original version. With all the changes brought about in hybridization (including the loss of fragrance that was once needed to attract pollinators), and so many Cattleyas already closely related, one needs to wonder where to draw the line in determining an orchid to still represent the species.

[Roberta]

Oh, and just to make it more complicated, natural hybrids can also occur if there is proximity. Along with natural variation within the species even before humans got involved with line breeding. The concept of "species" can be rather fuzzy, with disagreement among taxonomists for these "edge" cases. I'm not sure that DNA testing is sophisticated enough, even, to be able to say for sure "this is species a and that is a hybrid of species a and species b" Evolution is still happening as environments change, so speciation itself can be, in some cases, somewhat fluid.

[Keysguy]

[QUOTEOh, and just to make it more complicated, natural hybrids can also occur if there is proximity.][/QUOTE]

Exactly! Won't it be fun to learn someday that some of our favorite classic "species" are actually a natural hybrid?