Catasetum new shoots

[bil]

I still want to get this all straight in my head.

Now, I can see that there is a dammn goood reason not to get water into the leaves of a new shoot, as they are then hypersensitive to rotting.

Now the article I posted says
"But how much to water when the plants are leafless and at rest? Certainly less
than when they are undergoing rapid growth! It is important to note that those who
grow catasetums and cycnoches well do not withhold water entirely during the
plants' rest period. Of the growers polled for this article, all reduce their watering
frequency after flowering and leaf loss in the winter, not increasing it until new
growth appears and begins rapid expansion in the spring. One such grower waters
as infrequently as once per month during this period of rest (Krull and Smith,
1983), another states "We water when dry" (Lodyga, 1983), while a third emphasizes
"Never allow [the media] to completely dry out" (Riopelle, 1983), and yet a
fourth waters every five to eight days, noting that during a plant's rest period,
"Long dry spells where bulbs shrivel damage the plant's ability to come into vigorous
growth on the next cycle" (Soule, 1983). "

Now none of those says anything about leaving it completely dry,

"As discussed in last month's article, though catasetums and cycnoches often lack
leaves during their rest period, they do have both pseudobulbs and roots which require
some moisture to survive. Roots which dry out completely do not survive, and
for this reason some moisture should be present around the roots at all times. "

"Roots which dry out completely do not survive, and for this reason some moisture should be present
around the roots at all times. "

I haven't yet been able to find any info on water causing roots to stop growing. Since that's an interesting concept, if anyone has any data or references on that I would be very grateful.

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by bil

I still want to get this all straight in my head.

Now, I can see that there is a dammn goood reason not to get water into the leaves of a new shoot, as they are then hypersensitive to rotting.

Now the article I posted says
"But how much to water when the plants are leafless and at rest? Certainly less
than when they are undergoing rapid growth! It is important to note that those who
grow catasetums and cycnoches well do not withhold water entirely during the
plants' rest period. Of the growers polled for this article, all reduce their watering
frequency after flowering and leaf loss in the winter, not increasing it until new
growth appears and begins rapid expansion in the spring. One such grower waters
as infrequently as once per month during this period of rest (Krull and Smith,
1983), another states "We water when dry" (Lodyga, 1983), while a third emphasizes
"Never allow [the media] to completely dry out" (Riopelle, 1983), and yet a
fourth waters every five to eight days, noting that during a plant's rest period,
"Long dry spells where bulbs shrivel damage the plant's ability to come into vigorous
growth on the next cycle" (Soule, 1983). "

Now none of those says anything about leaving it completely dry,

"As discussed in last month's article, though catasetums and cycnoches often lack
leaves during their rest period, they do have both pseudobulbs and roots which require
some moisture to survive. Roots which dry out completely do not survive, and
for this reason some moisture should be present around the roots at all times. "

"Roots which dry out completely do not survive, and for this reason some moisture should be present
around the roots at all times. "

I haven't yet been able to find any info on water causing roots to stop growing. Since that's an interesting concept, if anyone has any data or references on that I would be very grateful.

Yikes! Terrible advice! That's a pretty old article. We now know that the old roots die and are replaced in spring by new ones. Being completely dry is fine and so is the fact that the old roots are no longer functional in the spring.

Follow this advice from Fred Clarke: Sunset Valley Orchids - Superior Hybrids for Orchid Enthusiasts

NO WATER DURING DORMANCY!! Especially for folks just starting out with this group. You can start fiddling with watering once you've gotten the basics mastered.

---------- Post added at 09:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 PM ----------

Here's a thread I started this spring: Still not watering...

The most shriveled plant in that thread is blooming on its third spike and putting out its fourth: Clowesia Grace Dunn

[estación seca]

If you spritz developing roots even once, they are likely to stop growing completely. That will kill the developing growth. Depending on the size of last year's pseudobulbs, the plant will be able to push one or two more growths. But, if you water THOSE too early, the same thing will happen, and you will kill the plant.

These plants, in habitat, have a very long and completely dry season. They drop their leaves. In some areas of Mexico, where I have seen plants in this group, the dry season may be 8 months long. There is not even any dew whatsoever. They are completely dry for 8 months.

Fred Clarke, quoted above, says 90% of the previous years' roots die during the winter. They are there merely to hold the plants onto the trees, walls or fences where they grow.

They begin new root growth before the rainy season comes. They develop a huge root system in advance of any rain. Fred thinks this is so they can take in as much water as possible when the rain does come, because they will grow a series of very large leaves very rapidly. If they do not have a huge root system the new shoot will die.

Watering too early stops root growth. This will limit how much water the plant can take up. If the plant tries to make a standard-sized growth with inadequate roots, the developing shoot wilts and collapses. I have seen this happen to several people in our club who insisted on watering their plants too early.

At the time the article you quoted was written, these were considered extremely difficult plants to grow. They often died during the winter (because people watered them), or during the spring growing season (because people watered them too early.) As a result, people watered them inadequately in the summer, since they had a reputation of dying with too much water. Insufficient water during the summer will wilt and kill the shoot, also.

In the years after that, exactly as isurus79 wrote, we have learned how to grow them - no water, not even misting, until the roots are fully developed. Then huge quantities of water, fertilizer and light through the summer. Stop watering in fall, whenever leaves begin looking yellowish, and certainly stop completely by January 1 (or July 1 in the Southern Hemisphere.)

And - do not water the winter-bloomers in the winter while blooming! They evolved to grow this way.

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[bil]

Thanks for that, very helpful.

That is completely fascinating that water would do that to the roots.
You would think that water would encourage growth, wouldn't you?

So in short, better to risk stunting the half developing bulbs than risk killing the new shoots.

[orchidsarefun]

Bil - it's basically irrefutable that water anywhere near smallish new growth does cause rot or die-off. I have proved that myself. Interestingly though a new growth always initiated on the opposite side of the pseudobulb so all was not lost.
However I am not so certain that the entire plant should be kept dryish. Fortunately I can experiment as I have a few same-sized catasetum. So - in my conditions of around 50% humidity and 70f temperature - I did a little experiment. I normally unpot all my catasetum but this past Winter I left 2 in their pots.
One I have given about a 1/2 cup of water a week into the opposite side of the pot ( near the oldest bulbs ) and the other plant I have kept dry. The plant I watered has broken dormancy and has 3 new growths/spikes and I can see that the older roots have plumped up. A good result ! And something I have never seen or had before. So - going forward I am going to adopt this watering routine and leave my plants potted through Winter 2017 and repot when new growths and their roots are large enough.
The moral of this story is to experiment yourself if something doesn't make sense to you because you never know.....

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[isurus79]

Yep, experimentation is often a great idea.

Orchidsarefun- I'm curious to see how your new roots will fare with this watering regimen. Please keep us informed throughout the growing season.

[bil]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

Bil - it's basically irrefutable that water anywhere near smallish new growth does cause rot or die-off. I have proved that myself. Interestingly though a new growth always initiated on the opposite side of the pseudobulb so all was not lost.
However I am not so certain that the entire plant should be kept dryish. Fortunately I can experiment as I have a few same-sized catasetum. So - in my conditions of around 50% humidity and 70f temperature - I did a little experiment. I normally unpot all my catasetum but this past Winter I left 2 in their pots.
One I have given about a 1/2 cup of water a week into the opposite side of the pot ( near the oldest bulbs ) and the other plant I have kept dry. The plant I watered has broken dormancy and has 3 new growths/spikes and I can see that the older roots have plumped up. A good result ! And something I have never seen or had before. So - going forward I am going to adopt this watering routine and leave my plants potted through Winter 2017 and repot when new growths and their roots are large enough.
The moral of this story is to experiment yourself if something doesn't make sense to you because you never know.....

Interesting, thanks for that.

Your moral there is excellent. It's basically why I am asking all this. This is my first winter with catasetums, and the fact that they have half developed shoots, and new buds is very irritating, as either route presents risk.

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by bil

Thanks for that, very helpful.

That is completely fascinating that water would do that to the roots.
You would think that water would encourage growth, wouldn't you?

So in short, better to risk stunting the half developing bulbs than risk killing the new shoots.

Bil- This group is perfectly adapted to developing significant amount of new growth without any water present. There isn't any risk of stunting the half developed bulb because they are so efficient at soaking up the water when it finally comes. These guys really are amazing!

[bil]

Originally Posted by isurus79

Bil- This group is perfectly adapted to developing significant amount of new growth without any water present. There isn't any risk of stunting the half developed bulb because they are so efficient at soaking up the water when it finally comes. These guys really are amazing!

There was a reference on another thread, saying that the plants would stop all root growth as soon as watered.
That's interesting. I don't suppose you have links to any articles on this do you?

[orchidsarefun]

I'll soon be able to report back on whether watering impacts root growth. I checked again and the 3 growths I have do not currently have any signs of root nubbins ( well they won't if they are spikes ).
However I can say that the watering initiated these growths because
- both plants were fully dormant.
- both plants grown in identical conditions.
- the unwatered plant is still dormant.

Pity I don't have a 3rd plant to see what happens if watering is stopped after growth is initiated and only resumed when roots are at recommended length.

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