The Long Awaited "Nun's Orchids"

[gixrj18]

Hijack away!!! I'm no Catasetum expert, so I'm interested to hear the outcome...you guys would know better than I. I will say that mine look exactly like the pics that Kavanaru posted....so if those are truly macrocarpum, I would think mine are the same. But like I said....Catasetums aren't my strong point! Let me know when you guys figure it out!

[Bruno De Toni]

All right now I was able to upload the picture. You may see on this montage three flower pictures, the one on the left is a pure cat. macrocarpum. Then the next one has been posted by Jasen which I believed is a xtapiriceps and the one on the rigth is a trully xtapiriceps that has been published in another web page by my friend Rafael Vaamonde. The differences are outlined by a red circle in two pictures to highlitgh the changes in the labelum expression. All three pictures are quite similar at first glance and they can be grouped as catast. macrocarpum, but in detail they all have differences. Regarding the Piletum Imperial which is considered the king of the catasetums, there is a general consensus, which has been accepted that the red color is the influence of the macrocarpum crossings. Same thing happens to the Pileatum Aureum variety where the deep yellow is given by the macrocarpum. I hope this picture could help people to see very rapidly the differences between x tapiriceps and macrocarpum when they are flowering. Yeah Catasetums and affinities makes me having fun all year around and is very nice to know people who likes them very much as me. Also I am glad to know another venezuelan who likes this plants. I was wondering how you were able to grow this plants in Europe. I wanted to bring them to my parents land in Italy (Carnian Alps) but at the end I decided not to do it.

[kavanaru]

Bruno, thanks a lot for the pictures (I come later to them ) If you bring plants for your parents in Italy, you can have quite a few problems at the airport (no matter whether you have CITES and Phytosanitary permits with you!) Sometimes at the italian custom they get really P---off when you are bringing plants (specially from south america) - A friend of mine bought some plants at an orchid show in CCS, and I know he had all the permits because it was a friend of mine at the Botanical Institut who did all paper work for them. When he arrived in Rome, the guys at the customs made a big deal and confiscated the plants. If you really want your parents to have this plants, try gettingthem at any european vendor. Nardotto e capello Azienda Agricola Nardotto e Capello are a very serious and recommended nursery in Italy or Schwerter Orchideenzucht - Orchideen und Orchideenzubehör - Online-Shop from Germany.

ok, now back to the pictures.

I understand what you mean now with the trident shape... but then, it is one of the points where I need to come back when I say that the Ctsm macrocarpum growing in Guanare (Portuguesa) do not have the central spkie in the middle of the "trident" as in your picture. They are actually more squared as in the pictures from golden. I have (in the house of my parents) indeed some plants with very pointy spike, which I have brought from Barinas and Apure.

If we agree that squared tip mean hybrid, then where does the Ctsm pileatum part come to the Guanare region from? This could be true in Apure where both species are sympatric, but not in Guanare where we are missing one of them (or, we have a different Catasetum playing the game here, and producing offsprings with macrocarpum that look like xtapiriceps - improbable)

All this, drives me actually to think that this is just a game of the genetic variation of this species (Ctsm macrocarpum) allowing diferent shapes on different populations, more than the effect of natural hybridisation (specially if one of the potential parents is missing in the zone). Same as is the case in genetic variation allowing different colours in cattleyas, and different shapes in Ctsm discolor (even within the same population as can be seen in La Gran sabana)

Without the intention of being detrimental to "the trident shape hypotesis", but more interesting to know whether it is widelly accepted among "orchidist" (not really sure whether this is the right spelling ) that the triden shape is the fingerprint of macrocarpum, would be to know where this idea came from. Who was the botanist (I would expect one specialized in Catasetinae) that identified this character as fingerprint, and what was the basis of the identification? Not that I want to be despective with "orchidists" (I am also one ) but it is known that sometimes there misconceptions within the group whether two plants are the same species or not, based only on the feedback of... who knows? [In those cases, I tend to search more for the scientific basis (genetic studies, DNA sequences, ecology, populations biology, especiation theory, etc.. yeap, that is what you keep in your heart when you study biology and do a PhD with strong background in evolution and adaptation) - and that also why I do not agree that Ctsm pileatum and Ctsm pileatum var Imperiale are different species: both live sympatric, are extremelly similar between each other, being mainly the colour teh different character, but also having the a whole range between the colour extrems - of course the hypothesis of macrocarpum genes involved in this makes the whole thing more complicated here too ]

[Bruno De Toni]

Ramon very interesting your point of view, however my intention was not to rise a controversy with this matter. I also agree with your idea that there are a lot of genetic variation and shapes and actually they show variations in color and shape from one year to another depending of the climate and culture conditions. Regarding the trident shape of the lip as a finger print, I can only recall it from discussions and not from a publications. There is a brazilian blog about catasetums where you may see a lot of comments regarding these plants. Even though there are discussions in how to recognize different species just looking the shape of the bulbs and the color marks at the base of the leaves. Now regarding the ones you found in Guanare, let me tell you that now in Caracas you may find catasetum hybrids which are really difficult o recognize their parents and this is caused by the precense of different plants in personal colections. A friend of mine has a natural hybrid at home which grew up on a palm tree and it is not a xtapiriceps is something else. It is just necesary to have one pileatum in the garden of a house to begin the natural breeding among the rest of plants near by.

[kavanaru]

don't worry about the discusion there is indeed controversy around this matter, but the discussion (I think) is more to express different points of view. Nothing personal at all

As per the Ctsm macrocarpum growing around Guanare, I know that you only need to have a particular espcies in one garden, and that could give place to the appearance of an hybrid somewhere. Especially in the tropics, and/or when you consider plants that naturally grow under similar conditions (the case of both discussed Ctsm). I had once a Cycnoches chlorochilon been naturally fertilized with pollen of Ctsm. barbatum (I think so, as they were the only catasetinae I had in bloom at the time) Unfortunatelly, one of the macaws found the huge seedpod quite interesting and tasty

However, I am sure you know Guanare (a little village in the middle of nowhere ) Even if you have Cts, pileatum in 100 gardens (which is absolutelly not the case - and I would say it should not be in more than 15 ) this cannot explain the whole population.

[nancy]

Cstm. xtapiriceps - mine is quite different; you can see the photos here: IOSPE PHOTOS
Though even in the species, there is a lot of variation, and this one is (allegedly) a naturally-occurring hybrid.
When you're talking Catasetums, though, there just aren't any 'dawgs.' I enjoy the photos!
Cheers - Nancy

[gixrj18]

Bruno, one thing I notice in your pictures is that the macrocarpum pic on the left has a top flower (where you circled) which looks a little different (point of view, maybe)....but if you look at that same picture, the lower right-hand flower (on the same spike) looks like my flower. This is just an observation.....but I think my flower looks a lot closer to the pic on the left, than it does to the one on the right.
At any rate, Ctsm. integerrimum has bloomed it's second spike. Although not female, it did fill out a little better this time....13 flowers! We'll see if we can't get a female out of the next two spikes! Here's some pics:

[Bruno De Toni]

Jansen, the differences you see on the lip of the flowers are related to the arrengement of the flower spike when the picture has been taken. I am pretty sure that your plant is not a pure macrocarpum. Regarding your Ctsm. integerrimum it looks fantastic and 13 flowers is a good gift.

[kavanaru]

Hi Jan, those are all very good and valid point for the discussion too Thanks!

Now, not that I am an expert, I just comment what I see in nature, and use my knowledge in species biology/ecology. So, I would add ust a few more comments to your entry:

Originally Posted by Jan Pahl

Well I don’t have the enough experience to compare the trident shape like Bruno or Ramón with accuracy, but I put my spoon in this conversation with some photos of Brazilian macrocarpums to give more to compare.

CATASETUMS: Catasetum macrocarpum
CATASETUMS: Catasetum macrocarpum
CATASETUMS: Catasetum macrocarpum "Marajoara"
CATASETUMS: Catasetum macrocarpum'Limão'
CATASETUMS: Catasetum macrocarpum 'Pesqueiro'

If we agree that macrocarpum is only macrocarpum if it has the "perfect" trident, and that xtapiriceps only exists in Venezuela, then we have a conflict with the Ctsm. macrocarpum "Limão" shown in the pictures above, Para and Toncantins is quite far south of the "xtapiriceps region" and clearly separated from it by the Amazonas river... see below for further discussion...

Originally Posted by Jan Pahl

my personal way to see the xtapiriceps complex, is that the introgression zone behave quite different depending the place and only occurs in “Los Llanos” or Venezuelan Savanna (xtapiriceps in Amazonian Orinoco, Rio Negro and Amazon basin are not quite easy to find even if both parents also coexists there).

More similar to pileatum forms are mostly found in Apure (Venezuela) and Arauca (Colombia) where both states form a border with a 3rd state (Amazonas, Venezuela). In that "triangle" even “pure” pileatum are not completely pure (have purple dots, more closed pileum, or other features like red or yellow pigmentation.

I need to make a correction here. You also find "pure" white Cts, pileatum in this "trangle" with perfect wide open labellum... Actually, this is the most common form in south Apure, and the you have the whole range from pure white to almost completely red (personally, I have never seen one completely red plant in the wild/this region), including also some white plants with yellow pigmentation to pure yellow (very rare) or "yellow" with red dots... and of course also the whole shape in labellum, which brings us back again to the whole complexity of the xtapiriceps/pileatum complex

Originally Posted by Jan Pahl

Brazil in places where macrocarpum cohabit with pileatum but in the jungle (Not in a savanna), pileatum only exists in pure white forms, sometimes infused with green, but not red or yellow forms. This for me confirms that the natural hybrid somehow have better "adaptations" to Venezuelan savanna than the Parents or that the Parents share exactly the same niche, so genetic migration is quite possible.

no discussion regarding the niche used by both parents. However, I must admit that even though I have found both parent (including also othe espcies) living in the same area, I have never seen any ofthem growing exactly next to each other: my experience is that you find macrocarpum more into the savanna, and pileatum closer to the gallery forests, with some important overlaping. And I have seen them sharing the same pollinators, which facilitates the hybridization process...

Originally Posted by Jan Pahl

, I think tapiriceps forms a “Cline” or geographic change in phenotype and genotype that starts "south" with the tendency to more "Orinoco adapted "pileatum" forms, and ends "north" with the more “Los llanos” adapted macrocapum parent.

I don’t know is my reasoning is correct, but if xtapiriceps behaves the way I think they behave, them is no impossible to find tapiriceps inside more north low land areas where no pileatum grows naturally.

I hope this help
Jan

I still have the question, of how can you have a hybrid widespread in a region where you do not have one of the parents, and it is too far away from them toallow a pollinator covering the distance to "import" the pollen?

This, together withe macrocarpum "Limão" shown above, and accepting the purity of macrocarpum with only perfect trident, brings us to the question: are we speaking of only one hybrid here, or is there any other hybrid (maybe more complex) involved in this "xtapiriceps" complex?

Even though I do not trust taxonomist very much, as many MANY of them base their work only on phenotypical characters, and very often not even seen but herbarium samples, I do trust systematicist and phyllogeneticist... so, if there is any of them here please take this complex and start analysisng it to bring some clarity {unfortunatelly, I cannot tell my good friend from Berlin to run this analysis, as she has trauma with orchids from her PhD, and hates them since then... - I write this, because I know she will read it Hallo Birgit!!!}

[Bruno De Toni]

What an interesting discussion. Regarding the Ctsm. macrocarpum "Limão" found in Brazil I agree with Ramon that it may represent a more complex hybrid. I like very much the point of Jan which considers the changes in the phenotype of the Xtapiriceps depending on the abundance of one of the parents in the area. This may explain the wide variations of shapes and colors of the Ctsm. Xtapiriceps in southern Venezuela and in the llanos.