Should I water or not?

[mook1178]

Originally Posted by isurus79

Nice. Did you end up using the jar method from Fred?

Also, you can cut those top leaves off. I used to cut all mine in November when I brought them inside for the winter. Doesn't hurt the plant.

I did not go with the jar method. After watering the plants, they plumped up and stayed that way. I did not feel the need to go with the jar method, but it is in the back of my mind for next winter.

I decided not to cut the leaves off. Fred even mentioned it would not hurt the plant. However, I feel that they are still photosynthesizing and may possibly be adding to the pbulb. Also, Fred mentioned that the leaves staying are influence from the tenebrosum. I know tenebrosum really doesn't have much of a dormancy in the winter as others due to not having a true dry season in the original habitat. I had the room on the windowsill over winter, so I let them do their thing.

[SouthPark]

Originally Posted by isurus79

Errr, are you seriously disagreeing with Fred on this? How long have you been growing Catasetums?

I'm disagreeing with Fred on this. I wouldn't cut air-flow to my pot like that, especially when the pot has spaghnum in it.

I've been growing catasetum and orchids for 'long enough' to understand the importance of maintaining adequate aeration for roots. And plugging a pot of spaghnum (with an orchid growing in it) into a jar is expected to create issues for the roots and plant.

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by SouthPark

I'm disagreeing with Fred on this

Bad idea. Again, how long have you grown this group? This is important for people wondering if they should believe you or Fred Clarke.

[SouthPark]

Originally Posted by isurus79

Bad idea. Again, how long have you grown this group? This is important for people wondering if they should believe you or Fred Clarke.

It's not about believing one side or the other. It's about what we have learned in terms of 'accumulated knowledge' from growers over the years. Accumulated sensible knowledge. One is - adequate aeration of roots - and avoiding water stagnation - is beneficial for root and plant health.

In my opinion - all these catasetum health issues (eg. watering too early coming out of dormancy etc) is not due to watering the plant early ----- it's due to unwanted conditions occurring for the plant - such as temperature too cold and/or water stagnation in pot (too wet media with not enough water movement) and/or inadequate aeration around roots and/or not enough air-movement (around leaves, stem, media and around roots).

I don't measure anyone against their years of growing experience. We are all students of orchid growing, and continue to learn - not just about growing orchids, but anything else in the world. We can share our experiences.

I focus on situations that will be or can be harmful to orchids, and apply methods that cut down on issues, or even (if possible) eliminate issues.

[mook1178]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with scientifically disagreeing with someone prominent in any field. This is how knowledge is gained. If Darwin didn't buck up against the giants in his field at the time, we may not be as far advanced in evolutionary biology as we. Also, others may have had an idea of natural selection, but didn't want to buck the system. Maybe if they did we would be farther in evolutionary biology than we currently are.

For advanced growers, I think South Park makes some very realistic and sound suggestions. He is not saying too water ctsm like they are in active growth, but to consider that a little water under the right conditions while dormant or in early growth isn't as harmful as the community says.

Much of the community is adamant about no water period over dormancy, which is fully justified for beginners. However, just looking through this forum, there have been instances one could find of people watering when you 'shouldn't'. This very thread can speak to it being ok. I watered plans in dormancy to plump up my bulbs. I have plenty of aeration around my roots and did not get any root rot.

I understand wanting to do what the experts say, but if no one ever tried anything different, no new knowledge will be gained.

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by SouthPark

It's not about believing one side or the other. It's about what we have learned in terms of 'accumulated knowledge' from growers over the years. Accumulated sensible knowledge. One is - adequate aeration of roots - and avoiding water stagnation - is beneficial for root and plant health.

First of all, your 'accumulated knowledge' is vastly less than Fred Clarke's. The fact that you won't tell the internet how many years you've been growing Catasetums is testament to this. Second, adequate aeration of roots is not necessary in this stage of the plant's growth cycle (dormancy), nor is it vital during active growth. I grow Catasetums using the PET method where 1/4 of the plastic bottle (think no air flow) is filled with water and the rest of the pot is jammed with rotting bark and sphagnum.

Originally Posted by SouthPark

In my opinion - all these catasetum health issues (eg. watering too early coming out of dormancy etc) is not due to watering the plant early ----- it's due to unwanted conditions occurring for the plant - such as temperature too cold and/or water stagnation in pot (too wet media) and/or inadequate aeration around roots.

You opinion is generally considered more valuable with considerable experience. Or even a moderate amount of experience. Please gain some experience of your own before proclaiming to the world that you know better than people who have done something for decades.

Originally Posted by SouthPark

I don't measure anyone against their years of growing experience. We are all students of orchid growing, and continue to learn - not just about growing orchids, but anything else in the world. We can share our experiences.

Sharing your experience is vastly different than proclaiming you've upended decades of experience with one or two years of growing.

Originally Posted by SouthPark

I focus on situations that will be or can be harmful to orchids, and apply methods that cut down on issues, or even (if possible) eliminate issues.

Nothing about having the pot above the water, as shown in the photos is harmful to this orchid. At all. In any way shape or form.

Originally Posted by mook1178

There is absolutely nothing wrong with scientifically disagreeing with someone prominent in any field. This is how knowledge is gained. If Darwin didn't buck up against the giants in his field at the time, we may not be as far advanced in evolutionary biology as we.

Darwin came to his understanding of evolution through decades of experience. He was primed to upend the status quo because he knew what he was talking about. He had traveled the world and came to an educated, well considered conclusion. He did not study natural systems for a year or two and then publish his hypothesis.

By the way, I'm not talking about watering the plant during dormancy (which is also not great advice for novice growers). I'm pointing to a) SouthPark's inexperience and b) the completely wrong assertion that having that pot above a glass of water will in any way harm the plant. This is 100% inaccurate and does not come from a place of knowledge.

Catasetinae typically grow with their roots either on rotting wood or within the part of the palm frond that connects to the tree. Water and plant material accumulate here and are very effective at cutting off airflow. SouthPark's comments show a very strong misunderstand of how these species grow in the wild, a misunderstanding of basic Catastum needs, and a misunderstanding what can be harmful to this group of orchids.

Originally Posted by mook1178

I understand wanting to do what the experts say, but if no one ever tried anything different, no new knowledge will be gained.

I agree. However, SouthPark is merely making wild assertions without having the knowledge back it up. Experimenting is one thing. Offering bad advice riddled with biological inaccuracies is something completely different.

[SouthPark]

Steve -- my catasetum growing experience is two years. My other orchid growing experience catts, den, angraecum is thirty-five (plus) years. I haven't had any orchid in my collection die during this span of 35 years. And none of my 20 or so catasetum plants are going to die, that's for sure.

My very first orchids that I ever owned - 3 of them - didn't make it (when I was first beginning/learning orchid growing - but this is a long time ago).

Avoid understimating the experience and capabilities of other growers here or anywhere.

We're here to share experiences for the benefit of orchids and members. Keeping orchids in good health for very long periods of time is what we strive to do.

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by SouthPark

Steve -- my catasetum growing experience is two years. My other orchid growing experience catts, den, angraecum is thirty-five (plus) years. I haven't had any orchid in my collection die during this span of 35 years. And none of my 20 or so catasetum plants are going to die, that's for sure.

Avoid understimating the experience and capabilities of other growers here or anywhere.

No one ever said your orchids are dying. Only that you’re offering (bad) advice because you lack a basic understanding of this plant’s biology.

The only thing I know about with regards to your capabilities and experience is what you type here. If I assume you’ve only got a few years of growing Catasetums under your belt, it’s probably because you’ve repeatedly led me to believe so. Also, you just said you’ve been growing then for two years. I don’t say this to poke fun at you or to be mean. Hell, I love teaching new and experienced growers alike. But you don’t go around explicitly dismissing valid advice (pot above water) from the most renowned grower/breeder of Catasetinae (or any group!) without some pretty serious credentials. Especially when it’s clear you haven’t grown this group for very long and don’t understand the biology.

[SouthPark]

That's no problem at all Steve. Simply know that there are catasetum growers that are already understanding certain incorrect assumptions (eg. issues of watering catasetum coming out of dormancy early, and needing to wait for roots to become X inches in length before evening allowing water to touch them). I expect that there will come a time when enough growers will see this. And then you will know that our observations and experience do count.

[mook1178]

I have to say I did not take it as South Park explicitly dismissing his advice, just a mere disagreement. They never said it was a bad idea or to never do it, just that they wouldn't. South Park even gave valid reason, which is generally accepted advice for growing orchids.