Hey Orchid Experts. Was I cheated? Miltassia Shelob from SecretGarden

[Chiru]

So I just purchased a few orchids from SecretGardenRarePlants.com which seems to have some decent reviews though I never heard of them until I was searching for an in stock Miltassia (Bratonia) Shelob 'Tokien' which they have in-stock listed as near blooming size. So I purchased one as well as an Oncidium Twinkle. I was excited to receive it, but noticed the box to be very small, and very light. Thinking I accidentally received two Twinkles by mistake when I opened it, I emailed them and they said that its blooming size. I don't know a whole lot about miltassia/Bratonia, other than the flower gets to be nearly the size of your hand. The seedling I received is the size of my hand. Plants are in excellent condition though!

Here is what Jodie, whom I assume is one of the owners as that was the name on my shipped box, told me:

"Yes they do start blooming at that size, the first blooming will be just a few flowers but each time they bloom after that they will have more and more flowers. Thanks Jodie"

Anybody know if what she is telling me is true? From my perspective it looks like a seedling that is many years away from giving me blooms.

Here is a picture of the Bratonia I received next to the oncidium twinkle that was also sent. The Bratonia is on the left, and twinkle on the right for comparison on size. I'd like to consult with people who know more about Bratonias who could hopefully reassure me and confirm the message I got was true.

Imgur: The magic of the Internet

Thanks!

[MrHappyRotter]

Sorry, I had to edit because I misread things.

The Oncidium Twinkle is blooming sized. They're small, floriferous, and and start blooming quite small and young. The Bratonia is near blooming size for sure, some might even list it as blooming size. I think those terms, while not well defined, are pretty accurate here.

I think a lot of sellers take the absolute most permissive view of what constitutes blooming size as meaning under ideal conditions at least some of the seedlings of a similar size and in this same sized pot can or will bloom within the next year. A number of genera can bloom for the first time while really young. Phals and Oncdiums are common examples, it's really not unusual to see some seedlings bloom while still in their compot, at most a year or two out of flask. So, technically, that means very young, small plants are blooming size. And yes, those first spikes usually produce few flowers, smaller flowers, and lower quality flowers than what the plant is actually capable of.

Near blooming size is usually used for stuff that's 1+ year away from blooming, as in it will likely skip the next blooming season, but in good care, could bloom any time after that.

The plants themselves appear to be correctly labeled in so far as much as you can tell from the foliage, have multiple growths, and are very healthy. I can see why you'd be disappointed or even feel mislead, but given the evidence, I don't think the vendor cheated you either.

[PaphMadMan]

Near blooming size is obviously an inexact measurement. I usually take it to mean the plant is capable of blooming in season after a year of consistently good care and assuming not too much shock from shipping/moving to a new environment. That might be a bit ambitious for your plant, but under ideal conditions I think it could bloom summer 2020, so near blooming size is not too big of a stretch. With such an apparently healthy plant I don't think you can call it being cheated, though you might have reasonable hoped for more.

[Chiru]

Originally Posted by MrHappyRotter

Sorry, I had to edit because I misread things.

The plants themselves appear to be correctly labeled in so far as much as you can tell from the foliage, have multiple growths, and are very healthy. I can see why you'd be disappointed or even feel mislead, but given the evidence, I don't think the vendor cheated you either.

Thanks, that has me reassured. I have a blooming Oncidium Twinkle that isn't visible in the picture, so I know they're pretty tiny when they bloom, but wasn't sure at all on the Bratonia, since the plant gets rather large and I have some massive Oncidiums. I think one of my Oncidiums Psuedobulbs are larger than that entire Bratonia I received. The Twinkle I purchased from them is the Pink variety and I wasn't too worried about when it would bloom and was just worried aobut the Bratonia. I'm honestly quite surprised the Bratonia is within blooming size though, given how tiny it is. Probably a stupid question, but would the flower size be proportional to the plant, then? In otherwords, a tiny flower, which gets larger as the plant gets larger?

The plants are in great condition and the price was right, so I think I'll definitely be purchasing from them again sin ce all seems well. If the Bratonia is in fact near bloom size, then I certainly recommend them as a company because I have to say they send much better quality plants than anything I've gotten on eBay. I also read "near blooming size" and consider it about a year from bloom when sellers say this. I think anything more than a year should not be labeled "near bloom size". The size just had me confused and had me wondering if that year was going to end up being 2 or 3.

[camille1585]

Oncidium types bloom on realy small plants, as mentioned before, and I wouldn't be surprised if you see that bloom this season or more likely next.

Sometimes growers stretch the truth a bit without outright lying and this is a good example. But but good healthy plants at a fair price, I continue to shop at that sort of grower, since I then know what to expect size wise.

Bloom size tends to be constant, though first time bloomers tend of have few flowers, maybe some quality issues, and maybe only slightly smaller.

[MrHappyRotter]

Originally Posted by Chiru

I think anything more than a year should not be labeled "near bloom size".

That's probably a bit too strict of a definition.

Many orchids only bloom once a year or only bloom seasonally. So, it seems reasonable to classify an orchid as blooming size if the grower suspects it will bloom within the next year, give or take.

The next size down then would be near blooming size. By mutual exclusion, that would mean the grower reasonably expects it will take more than 1 year to bloom.

Originally Posted by Chiru

I'm honestly quite surprised the Bratonia is within blooming size though, given how tiny it is. Probably a stupid question, but would the flower size be proportional to the plant, then? In otherwords, a tiny flower, which gets larger as the plant gets larger?

It would be a stretch to call the Bratonia blooming size, however, it's a case where there's room for debate.

Under good conditions, this hybrid is vigorous and grows quickly. I don't necessarily think any of the current psuedobulbs will develop a spike, however the newest one might. More likely, I think it's within the realm of possibility that the next round of bulbs could develop by late spring or early summer. That next set should be much bigger than the current ones (again assuming ideal conditions), and it's not inconceivable that they'd be large enough to bloom by the end of this year or very early next year. It probably won't happen, but it also would not be surprising. So in that regard, it could be considered blooming sized. Calling it near blooming sized is a pragmatic label and less likely to disappoint customers, so I think it was the right call in the case of your plant.

As for the flower size, generally when Oncidium alliance plants bloom young and on small plants, there's a lot of variation as to the consequences for the flowers, so it's hard to say. You might get 4 dinky flowers, 1 or 2 flowers that are practically normal size, or a single tiny deformed runt of a flower. The main thing young plants lack is flower count, which tends to get sacrificed much more than flower size is reduced. In other words, it's exceedingly unlikely that you'll get 6+ miniature flowers, it's much more likely that you'll get 1 or 2 flowers that are a bit smaller than the plant's full potential once it's had time to mature.

[Chiru]

Originally Posted by MrHappyRotter

That's probably a bit too strict of a definition.

Many orchids only bloom once a year or only bloom seasonally. So, it seems reasonable to classify an orchid as blooming size if the grower suspects it will bloom within the next year, give or take.

The next size down then would be near blooming size. By mutual exclusion, that would mean the grower reasonably expects it will take more than 1 year to bloom.

More or less what I mean. I know that many orchids bloom once a year, and many bloom multiple times per year. What I mean to say is that I personally believe that if a plant is labeled as "near blooming" it should reach maturity or be capable of blooming within a year or so, give or take. If it is labeled as "blooming size" it should already be of maturity or capable of blooming. Due to when your orchid blooms, it's reasonable not to expect a bloom given a period of time, as you may have purchased it right after it finished blooming, so a "blooming size" plant may not bloom for another year. My thinking is mostly related to maturity, not immediate blooming results. In otherwords, as long as my orchid is capable of producing flowers, whether that would be the same time next year, I would say its definitely blooming size.

[SaraJean]

Originally Posted by Chiru

What I mean to say is that I personally believe that if a plant is labeled as "near blooming" it should reach maturity or be capable of blooming within a year or so, give or take. If it is labeled as "blooming size" it should already be of maturity or capable of blooming.

How most nurseries do it is
Blooming size = capable to bloom within the next proper season.
Near blooming size= capable of blooming in season within 12-18 months under ideal conditions. I would consider the one in question to be near blooming size.
Large Seedling or Seedling= 2–3 years from blooming in the proper season (or longer as is the case of my Paph sanderianum which hopefully will reach blooming size before I die...)

Now maturity is a different animal. Many places will list something as blooming size because, technically, it is able to bloom within the next 12 months with good care. It may not be ‘blooming size’ at time of purchase, but it can reach that size within the next 12 months. Blooming size doesn’t always mean it’s a mature orchid though. Some places will make the distinction between a young blooming size plant (may be a first bloom) and a mature blooming size plant. Mature size usually means it is at its max height, has previously bloomed, and has several growths capable of blooming that season in the case of something like a Dendrobium, Cattleya, or Oncidium.

[Chlorophile]

I will never order from SecretGarden again. I purchased a few orchids from them and they were all extremely tiny and in pretty poor shape. The macodes I ordered was COVERED in mealybugs and when I contacted them with photos they told me it was cold damage and refused to refund me. Just not worth it to save a few bucks per plant IMO.

[WaterWitchin]

Originally Posted by Chlorophile

I will never order from SecretGarden again. I purchased a few orchids from them and they were all extremely tiny and in pretty poor shape. The macodes I ordered was COVERED in mealybugs and when I contacted them with photos they told me it was cold damage and refused to refund me. Just not worth it to save a few bucks per plant IMO.

What Chlorophile says. ^^ One go-round with them about fifteen years ago was enough. It was also a mealy bug issue, with excuses and no refund.

Edited to add: Not saying yours look bad Chiru. They look just fine. Just wasn't my experience with them.