Phal column sticking out of forming buds.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Originally Posted by Manu

I already know these plants have bloomed normally previously. Shouldn't a genetic mutation be permanent? Symptoms could show intermittently, but I mean the mutation is always present? If a product is causing it to show, isn't that more of a temporary hormonal thing!?!


Thanks for the feedback!

The mutation itself can be present in the genes, but the expression of it can change. This is a good example of epigenetics.

If there is no damage or faulty genetic change, epigenetic principles will determine whether certain genes are expressed or silenced.

DNA has to be replicated, and if it is replicated with non-life threatening changes to the nucleotides and doesn't get corrected, those uncorrected pieces of DNA can stay in place on the genes. The change in DNA can be the result of environmental factors such as the use of a certain chemical, for example. Mutated DNA can also be the result of naturally faulty replication.

If in fact the DNA is not damaged or faulty, then we can move on to the topic of epigenetics itself.

Here's when epigenetics comes in...in order to understand this process, you have to understand how DNA structures itself into a chromosome. A strand of DNA wraps itself around a bunch of little cylindrical structures called histones to form what are called nucleosomes. Those histones have histone tails. Those histone tails have epigenetic factors attached to them. Those epigenetic factors can interact with the environment with certain chemicals to express or silence certain genes in the DNA strand. The way that genes are expressed or silenced is through the lengthening or shortening of the portion of DNA in between these nucleosomes. This lengthening of the portion of DNA between the nucleosomes allows other molecules to interact with the DNA in order to enhance the expression of that gene.

A Super Brief and Basic Explanation of Epigenetics for Total Beginners | What is Epigenetics?

epigenetics - Google Search

Epigenetics: The Science of Change

I'm not very well versed in genetics, but I do basically know that this is a case of epigenetics in play.

When you understand how genetics works, it is difficult to say definitively that it is due to the overuse of Superthrive when there is no conclusive evidence to support that claim. Although it is a possibility, it might not be the actual causal factor, particularly in your case.

In regards to the batch of Superthrive you have, the active ingredient would be glacial acetic acid at 2%. Although it states that this ingredient is used as a preservative, I believe that it again serves more as a synthetic auxin in place of NAA at 2%, I think it is enough to stimulate root growth if I'm not mistaken.

What Is Glacial Acetic Acid?

Acetic acid | CH3COOH - PubChem

Since we were talking about NAA briefly, here's a reference to it:

1-Naphthaleneacetic acid | C12H10O2 - PubChem

I wanted to just add in a piece of the puzzle for people to understand about kelp. Kelp is able to induce root growth because of the phytohormones it contains. In case people are wondering what is the big deal with kelp in terms of stimulating root growth, this is why.

I'm sorry if my answer is not very definitive nor satisfactory, but I can't claim I know for sure that something is the cause, when I really don't. For us hobbyists, there's no good way to test it out and reproduce enough good data to support a claim or dismiss a claim in such a case.

If you feel that Superthrive is the cause, just stop using it and see if the plant stops expressing that trait.

[Roberta]

I had an issue with deformity on some Catts (segments not separating properly) several years ago and I was using Superthrive about once a month. I have stopped using it (having read of others' experiences) and haven't seen the problem since. There may not have been definitive scientific studies on the issue, but it isn't a product that is demonstrably necessary or useful either. Stop using it, observe what happens next year.

[Ray]

In the case of Superthrive, they have apparently changed the formulation, as it used to have NAA on the label. Vitamin B1 is also a root growth stimulant, but not a particularly good one.

Many moons ago, I did an experiment in which I intentionally overdosed the auxins, and all of my phal blossoms were deformed. The next time they bloomed after I ceased that experiment, they were all fine.

Manu - you can get KelpMax from C & C Orchids in Hamilton ON.

[Manu]

Originally Posted by Ray

In the case of Superthrive, they have apparently changed the formulation, as it used to have NAA on the label. Vitamin B1 is also a root growth stimulant, but not a particularly good one.

Many moons ago, I did an experiment in which I intentionally overdosed the auxins, and all of my phal blossoms were deformed. The next time they bloomed after I ceased that experiment, they were all fine.

Manu - you can get KelpMax from C & C Orchids in Hamilton ON.

Thanks Ray, I'll definitely get my hands on some, didn't know it was available from Canada..

And thanks for sharing your OD experience with Auxins, I'm pretty convinced this is not a genetic mutation and that my case is related to SuperThrive... I don't believe in coincidences! The lindenii has bloomed at least 5 6 times since I have it and was always normal. Suddenly it's exposed to some SuperThrive and I have a deformed bud. Same for the shilleriana... Maybe if it was just one plant, but two seems like a dead giveaway that this product is the culprit!

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Originally Posted by Manu

And thanks for sharing your OD experience with Auxins, I'm pretty convinced this is not a genetic mutation and that my case is related to SuperThrive... I don't believe in coincidences! The lindenii has bloomed at least 5 6 times since I have it and was always normal. Suddenly it's exposed to some SuperThrive and I have a deformed bud. Same for the shilleriana... Maybe if it was just one plant, but two seems like a dead giveaway that this product is the culprit!

Should Superthrive be the culprit, epigenetics is still in play.

It is not "coincidence".

You've got most of the explanation of what happened.

Now you have an idea of the cause and a rough idea of the resulting process that led up to the final result.

[Manu]

Philip, you seem to be very doubtful SuperThrive is the culprit? It seems like anything related to it is anecdotal to you.

Based on Ray's experience where he voluntary administered Auxins and it caused deformed flowers, would you say that this is also a genetic mutation? It has nothing to do with the Auxins? Are you saying all our plants have genetic mutations, but they don't appear unless triggered by Auxins? If that's the case, I'd consider the Auxins (or SuperThrive in my case) to be the root cause...

[Roberta]

Originally Posted by Manu

Thanks Ray, I'll definitely get my hands on some, didn't know it was available from Canada..

And thanks for sharing your OD experience with Auxins, I'm pretty convinced this is not a genetic mutation and that my case is related to SuperThrive... I don't believe in coincidences! The lindenii has bloomed at least 5 6 times since I have it and was always normal. Suddenly it's exposed to some SuperThrive and I have a deformed bud. Same for the shilleriana... Maybe if it was just one plant, but two seems like a dead giveaway that this product is the culprit!

Ray, thanks for the experiment! My observation with Catts (mini-Catts as I recall) was only anecdotal. Some groups may be more sensitive than others. But it sure looks to me like the evidence is stacking up against Superthrive. Manu, If you stop using it, and next year's flowers are normal, I think that clinches it. Keep us posted!

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Originally Posted by Manu

Philip, you seem to be very doubtful SuperThrive is the culprit?

I'm merely wording things as carefully as I can.

I have no reason to doubt that Superthrive could be the culprit, and I've mentioned it many times.

If fact, didn't I tell you that you didn't need to use it? If I never suspected it as being a culprit, I would've been far more direct. I have no problems doing so.

Originally Posted by Manu

It seems like anything related to it is anecdotal to you.

In lieu of a formal paper that is searchable about the subject matter, and considering how shaky the ingredient labeling can be for Superthrive, and prior to any knowledge of Ray's experiment, healthy skepticism is not out of line.

I never ruled out Superthrive as being a driving force in the floral deformities.

Originally Posted by Manu

Based on Ray's experience where he voluntary administered Auxins and it caused deformed flowers, would you say that this is also a genetic mutation?

It doesn't rule out what is known about the expression and silencing of genes through the epigenetic process.

I did say whether or not there is a genetic mutation/genetic error, silencing and expression of genes can go through the process of epigenetics.

Originally Posted by Manu

It has nothing to do with the Auxins?

I have never implied this. In fact, I have implied quite the opposite. Have you read my statement about possible cloning effects? I believe you even quoted me on this. What do you believe is in cloning media? Cytokinins and auxins.

Originally Posted by Manu

Are you saying all our plants have genetic mutations, but they don't appear unless triggered by Auxins?

Not in all cases, but you're not far off the mark.

I'd personally avoid overgeneralizing by using the words "all our plants".

Remember I mentioned that the histones have histone tails with epigenetic factors. Those epigenetic factors act as sites for chemical interactions with the external environment. Should there be a strong correlation between the use of Superthrive and the floral deformities, then the external environmental driver would be the synthetic auxins present in Superthrive. In other words, the auxin(s) in Superthrive could be activating those nucleosomes to move further away from each other when they interact with the epigenetic factors on the histone tails. This would allow for certain genes to be expressed more.

Unfortunately, I cannot provide a more detailed explanation that furthers this connection. I don't fully understand the biochemistry of epigenetics well enough, although I've heard the term methylation come up a few times in my biochemistry class when I was on the subject of genetics.

Whether that portion of the genetic material that is being expressed or silenced is genetically damaged or contains a genetic error that was made during the DNA replication process or not, it doesn't matter, one of the ways genes are expressed or silenced is through the epigenetic process.

So, yeah, your reasoning is not terribly off and it does explain why Superthrive is doing what it is doing.

Originally Posted by Manu

If that's the case, I'd consider the Auxins (or SuperThrive in my case) to be the root cause...

Hence why I say it is possible all the time. Why did you think I kept saying "I wouldn't be surprised if it is the culprit"?

---------- Post added at 04:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 PM ----------

There is also a reason why I posted the links regarding the chemistry of the auxins. I knew that there was a carboxyl component to both auxins. It could play a part in methylation.

I was hoping a trained chemist could explain this further...

[Manu]

Thanks for the very informative comments Philip.

Let's see if a chemists falls on this and comments further.

From my non-chemist perspective, I'll just blame the SuperThrive lol