Phal w/Fusarium balls and miniscule beetles, what to do?

[nogreenthumbs]

I've got a Phal NoID that I've had for a month or so. I thought it was doing pretty well. The roots looked green and seemed to be growing and it even put on a couple of new buds.

Today, I believe we've identified it as having the little orange balls that indicate that it is in the sexual stage of Fusarium. I haven't been able to find many of the little balls, but they are there.

I also found as I was examing the thing, tiny little (~1mm) iridescent yellowish, dark green beetles. I also saw one other little critter that was a bit bigger and reminded me a tiny bit of a silverfish, but much, much smaller and not as long. It didn't have the fringing that I would expect to see in a mealy bug, but I'm certainly no expert.

So, based on the photos, what does everyone think about the plant. should I try to repot and save or just trash and get something new?

Attached photos show 2x Fusarium, 2x roots, beetle, plant, and 2x blooms w/ & w/o new buds.

[estación seca]

The moss looks old. That is why some (not all) of the roots look in poor shape. Most commercial hybrids are brought to market with flowers about the time the moss has had it, and it's time to repot. So I would repot now. Repotting a Phal in flower rarely affects the flowers.

If you're experienced growing Phals in sphagnum moss, then keep using it. If you're not, you might find growing in large bark chunks easier. I like semi-hydroponics for Phals, but switching to that requires some study first.

Here is a good thread:
The Phal abuse ends here.

[Roberta]

I doubt very much that the plant has fusarium... it seems to be a "diagnosis" that came from a YouTube video... As for the bugs, all that plant needs, I think is to be repotted into clean media (i'd suggest bark rather than sphagnum) Be careful so that you don't bang up the flowers, and the blooms should be fine. Soak it well so that the moss can be disentangled from the roots more easily but if you can't get it all, leave it - just wash well to remove bugs and whatever else is in there. Bark will dry out faster than the old broken-down sphagnum so do check with wood skewer for dryness and water when it needs it - Phals love a wet-dry cycle.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Those orange balls may very well be a fruiting Fusarium, but...

Regardless of whether those are Fusarium in sexual stage or not, at this point, it is not too big a deal. The reason why is that the area where those fruiting bodies are growing is on a portion of the roots that have already been compromised.

These photos demonstrate what I mean by the Fusarium not necessarily being the primary causal problem for an orchid's demise. Notice how much of the plant is not really affected by this fungus at this point. Fusarium was always there, it was just a matter of the plant's immune system being strong enough to deter the fungus from growing like crazy and overtaking the plant. If the plant declines further, (let's just say more of those roots get damaged and die), you will begin to see more and more of the effects of a Fusarium infection when it originally was not the initial cause of the problem. In this case, the initial cause of the problem was that the moss was going bad. The deteriorating potting media caused the start of some root problems. If left unattended to, increasing problems with the root system will eventually cause the plant's immune system to decline. When the plant's immune system cannot handle the pathogens in the growing environment that it would've normally been able to fend off if it wasn't stressed so badly, that's when the Fusarium will take over and eventually finish off the badly weakened plant.

This Phal is easily salvageable. There's no need to toss it out or cut it up because you see Fusarium balls growing. Fusarium or not, if you make it inhospitable for the Fusarium to grow, it will not grow well. When Fusarium is not growing under favorable conditions, it gives the plant's immune system a break and an opportunity to recover.

As was advised earlier, please change the potting media out for fresh media. Whether you choose to grow in moss is up to you as was said prior, (and I also tend to recommend using large grade bark for ease of usage), but that moss the plant's growing in now has got to go asap.

Quite honestly, entomology is not one of my hobbies. I do not know what species of beetle it is, nor do I know whether it is a beetle that eats plants or if it feeds on pest insects. All I can say regarding this animal is, if you change out the potting media to fresh media, you may not have to worry too much about it returning. The conditions that this insect may have found inviting may no longer exist if you do a potting media change.

When you change the moss, please try to do as little damage to the roots as possible to not set the plant back.

[nogreenthumbs]

Originally Posted by estación seca

The moss looks old. That is why some (not all) of the roots look in poor shape. Most commercial hybrids are brought to market with flowers about the time the moss has had it, and it's time to repot. So I would repot now. Repotting a Phal in flower rarely affects the flowers.

If you're experienced growing Phals in sphagnum moss, then keep using it. If you're not, you might find growing in large bark chunks easier. I like semi-hydroponics for Phals, but switching to that requires some study first.

Here is a good thread:
The Phal abuse ends here.

Thanks. I have no experience with growing in moss. (and almost as much experience growing in bark, but that's my plan). Thanks, I have been going through that thread already. It's a great read. I will be getting rid of the moss today and repotting in bark.

Originally Posted by Roberta

I doubt very much that the plant has fusarium... it seems to be a "diagnosis" that came from a YouTube video...

No, the diagnosis came from my thread that you responded to in the Pest forum and the following thread and sweetjblue: Orange balls/bugs on phal's rotting roots?
There is a broken link to this PDF http://www.orchidsocietynsw.com.au/D...se_Control.pdf that does appear to show what I found (page 28) in much more limited quantities than in the photos.

As for the bugs, all that plant needs, I think is to be repotted into clean media (i'd suggest bark rather than sphagnum) Be careful so that you don't bang up the flowers, and the blooms should be fine. Soak it well so that the moss can be disentangled from the roots more easily but if you can't get it all, leave it - just wash well to remove bugs and whatever else is in there. Bark will dry out faster than the old broken-down sphagnum so do check with wood skewer for dryness and water when it needs it - Phals love a wet-dry cycle.

That's great news. I'd heard that Phals drop their blooms at the drop of a hat which would be unfortunate. Hopefully, I can be careful enough with the root and flowers while repotting so I don't have a problem. I do have a larger clear pot with slots for air circulation and some orchiata bark.

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

Those orange balls may very well be a fruiting Fusarium, but...

Regardless of whether those are Fusarium in sexual stage or not, at this point, it is not too big a deal. The reason why is that that the area where those fruiting bodies are growing is on a portion of the roots that have already been compromised.

These photos demonstrate what I mean by the Fusarium not necessarily being the primary causal problem for an orchid's demise. Notice how much of the plant is not really affected by this fungus at this point. Fusarium was always there, it was just a matter of the plant's immune system being strong enough to deter the fungus from growing like crazy and overtaking the plant. If the plant declines further, (let's just say more of those roots get damaged and die), you will begin to see more and more of the effects of a Fusarium infection when it originally was not the initial cause of the problem. In this case, the initial cause of the problem was that the moss was going bad. The deteriorating potting media caused the start of some root problems. If left unattended to, increasing problems with the root system will eventually cause the plant's immune system to decline. When the plant's immune system cannot handle the pathogens in the growing environment that it would've normally been able to fend off if it wasn't stressed so badly, that's when the Fusarium will take over and eventually finish off the badly weakened plant.

Great, that's what I was hoping. The plant seems to me to be relatively healthy considering it's media. I just wanted to make sure that the "kill it with fire" reaction that I have seen often in reference to Fusarium is not really entirely warranted under all circumstances.

This Phal is easily salvageable.

That's what I wanted to hear.

There's no need to toss it out or cut it up because you see Fusarium balls growing. Fusarium or not, if you make it inhospitable for the Fusarium to grow, it will not grow well. When Fusarium is not growing under favorable conditions, it gives the plant's immune system a break and an opportunity to recover.

As was advised earlier, please change the potting media out for fresh media. Whether you choose to grow in moss is up to you as was said prior, (and I also tend to recommend using large grade bark for ease of usage), but that moss the plant's growing in now has got to go asap.

Other than possibly removing any dead roots, cleaning the existing roots and potting in new media, is there anything else that you and the rest of the folks recommend that I do when repotting. I know that you are against H2O2 being used. What about a fungicide, or something else? Let the roots dry for a bit before potting or leave them a little damp or....?

Quite honestly, entomology is not one of my hobbies. I do not know what species of beetle it is, nor do I know whether it is a beetle that eats plants or if it feeds on pest insects. All I can say regarding this animal is, if you change out the potting media to fresh media, you may not have to worry too much about it returning. The conditions that this insect may have found inviting may no longer exist if you do a potting media change.

When you change the moss, please try to do as little damage to the roots as possible to not set the plant back.

OK, direct question to the last comment. In the attached photo, the root circled in red is the root that has the dead looking spot and orange balls near the plant. But the part of the root that was in the pot looks, I think, pretty good. Since a large part of the root is plump and green, should I just leave it? Also, there are a couple of yellow outlines around other spots that don't look healthy that are in the middle of various roots. What should I do, leave the roots that have small bad spots? I would assume that if there's a root where the bottom couple of inches is bad, that should be removed (with sterilized scissors). I have also heard that the cinnamon thing is not for roots, but more for leaves stems.

So, if I'm going to try to salvage this guy, I want the benefit of everyones' experience on what to keep and what to get rid of if anything. "There's no need to cut it up." I'm assuming this is more a reference to how some folks immediately start dissecting their plants looking for purple rings if they suspect Fusarium or is it about getting rid of bad spots or the roots?

Thanks everyone for your time and advice.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Originally Posted by nogreenthumbs

The plant seems to me to be relatively healthy considering it's media.

I would have to agree, and I'm sure you know that "relatively healthy considering its media" does not mean do nothing. What I just said previous is more of an emphasis of the point I'm trying to make, and is more for everybody who is reading, not just for you.

Originally Posted by nogreenthumbs

I just wanted to make sure that the "kill it with fire" reaction that I have seen often in reference to Fusarium is not really entirely warranted under all circumstances.

You are correct. It is not necessary to have a "kill it with fire reaction" in all cases. In a situation like yours, you caught it fairly early. There is no need for extreme measures at this point.

Originally Posted by nogreenthumbs

Other than possibly removing any dead roots, cleaning the existing roots and potting in new media, is there anything else that you and the rest of the folks recommend that I do when repotting?

In a case like yours, I personally do not do anything extra. I personally do exactly what you outlined: remove dead roots, clean existing roots, pot in new media, and return the orchid to where it was growing best. If you want to do anything extra, it is at your discretion.

Originally Posted by nogreenthumbs

I know that you are against H2O2 being used. What about a fungicide, or something else? Let the roots dry for a bit before potting or leave them a little damp or....?

For the reason that H2O2 causes damage to the cell walls of many organism's cells through oxidative stress, I cannot recommend its use if someone is dealing with an ailing plant, particularly if there is a pathogen involved. Hydrogen peroxide is not effective against all pathogenic organisms in all cases. Some bacteria or fungi have immunities to hydrogen peroxide's effects. Peroxide is also not very effective in a situation of a heavy infection as well.

I also cannot recommend the use of cinnamon on a plant's roots because it contains the chemical desiccant cinnamaldehyde, (which is the chemical that has anti-fungal and anti-bacterial properties due to its desiccating abilities). The last thing you want to do is to desiccate any portion of the roots. A plant's roots are its primary method of absorbing water in its environment. If too many roots are compromised because portions of the root system became desiccated from the use of cinnamon, it could give you even more headaches than you bargained for. I will also say that in some cases, cinnamon is ineffective against certain strains of bacteria or fungi. It is not a magic bullet for everything.

As far as anti-fungals are concerned, I'd be very careful about which anti-fungals you use. I've read that anti-fungals containing copper may be problematic towards orchids. I personally do not have enough experience regarding this matter because I rarely use anti-fungals, but I recommend you look into this further before you buy or apply any kind of chemical anti-fungal. As an additional note, anti-fungals may be of little use if there is a heavy infection of a pathogenic fungus. Anti-fungals can also have its limitations in being able to kill certain types of fungi. It is also not a magic bullet for all fungal infections in all cases.

Originally Posted by nogreenthumbs

OK, direct question to the last comment. In the attached photo, the root circled in red is the root that has the dead looking spot and orange balls near the plant. But the part of the root that was in the pot looks, I think, pretty good. Since a large part of the root is plump and green, should I just leave it? Also, there are a couple of yellow outlines around other spots that don't look healthy that are in the middle of various roots. What should I do, leave the roots that have small bad spots? I would assume that if there's a root where the bottom couple of inches is bad, that should be removed (with sterilized scissors). I have also heard that the cinnamon thing is not for roots, but more for leaves stems.

The portion of the root you circled may have dark portions on it, but it still looks turgid. I'd leave it alone and not cut sections like that yet. Observe them further and see how things go after you have done the repotting. If it declines further, then, yes, do get rid of it. If it stays the same, then there's no need to do anything further for the time being. Just be observant.

Originally Posted by nogreenthumbs

"There's no need to cut it up." I'm assuming this is more a reference to how some folks immediately start dissecting their plants looking for purple rings if they suspect Fusarium or is it about getting rid of bad spots or the roots?

Exactly! No more dissections unless you just don't care about the plant anymore. Dissections are for research purposes. It is not necessary for a diagnosis.

Just think about this analogy for a moment.

If you went to the doctor's office because you're sick from something like strep throat. Does the doctor immediately start dissecting you for a diagnosis?

I'm sure you know the answer to that question is a resounding, "NO!"

The doctor can diagnose you perfectly fine without having to shred you to pieces.

Same can be said about if you came to the doctor with a potentially terminal illness such as cancer.

The doctor does not automatically cut you open and take you apart. Even if the tests may be invasive to some degree or another, you are still left intact. It was not necessary for the doctor to hack you up for a proper diagnosis.

[nogreenthumbs]

Philip, thanks for the info. Let the potting commence!

[nogreenthumbs]

Done. Only had to cut off 1 long root, part of another root, and a short root.

How's she look?

[Orchid Whisperer]

Remember not to leave the bark too wet. Nearly dry between watering is a good target moisture condition before watering again.

Since there are some possible Fusarium (or other fungal) concerns, completely dry before watering would be OK, at least for a little while.

[nogreenthumbs]

OW, good call, yes, dry (much drier than before) between waterings. Thanks.

---------- Post added at 03:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:10 PM ----------

I was shocked at how much moss was in the tiny little "pot" that this thing came in and how tightly it was packed in there. Fortunately, it came out very easily, probably since it was still plenty damp after sitting out in the open all night last night.