Orchid Vendor's Tricks and Lies

[jkofferdahl]

This thread is making a presumption which I find to be somewhat unfortunate: it presumes that the buyer is, essentially, an idiot. If, as a buyer, you are an idiot then you get what you deserve.

Some of these issues - possibly most - can be solved by one thing: self-education. Before you buy an orchid, learn enough about it to know how to keep it alive once it's in your possession. Ignorance is NOT bliss when it involves orchids. If a seller says that a Phalaenopsis needs direct sunlight, the buyer should already have enough basic knowledge to know that's wrong. A buyer should know if a plant is a miniature, needs extra-high humidity, needs low light, etc., before plunking down the money. If you buy a plant without first doing the proper research then it's purely on YOU for being an uninformed buyer. And if you buy a blue Phal without knowing it's dyed, that's on you as well. As a buyer, you are obligated to have a basic understanding of what you are buying. Buyer beware!

I agree that there are some things which are purely on the vendors. Bil's example of sending little backbulbs is a good one. There is certainly going to be dishonesty with a few sellers. Most, however, are out honest and just trying to stay alive, keep families fed, and enjoy their work. Reading this thread gives the appearance that most vendors are out to screw their customer, and that's simply absurd.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by Leafmite

Orchids sold as______when they are not.
1) a frequent bloomer
2) fragrant
3) miniature
4) easy to grow
5) Intermediate/warm growing
6) Blooming size
7) a year from blooming
8) tolerant of low humidity
9) a specific orchid
10) miniature to small-sized (you think it will fit in your terrarium but it grows over a foot tall!)

Following up on John's post, all ten items in this list, with the exception of 9, might be differences due to cultural conditions, or experience, and not be misleading at all, unless they buyer doesn't grasp that possibility.

[Leafmite]

Originally Posted by Ray

Following up on John's post, all ten items in this list, with the exception of 9, might be differences due to cultural conditions, or experience, and not be misleading at all, unless they buyer doesn't grasp that possibility.

In my defense, eight out of ten of these were told in person to me by various vendors, at orchid shows, when asking about orchids I found unfamiliar. Later, when I googled the orchids, I learned that the information given to me was completely wrong. I doubt the vendors intentionally misled me and probably just did not know the orchids very well, either.

The issues concerning the maturity of the orchids came from a certain vendor from whom I once ordered (by mail) orchids. I had always bought small seedling size Cattleyas and did not have many that were blooming-size so I decided to treat myself and buy a few orchids from a well-known vendor that would be much further along than what I usually bought. I paid a generous price for Cattleyas advertised as blooming/blooming-next-bloom-cycle and received small seedlings with rotted roots in return that, from experience, were about five years from blooming if not set back by the root issue. What made that order even more striking was that, two days later, I received an order from Hausermann's of seedlings advertised to bloom in four years...they were a good deal larger, had healthy roots, and exactly what I had expected. The orchids from both vendors should have been mossiae-sized Cattleyas. In my opinion, it would have taken a miracle for those tiny seedlings to bloom in a single year.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Originally Posted by bil

As stated above where individual pBulbs are packed into a pot to look like a larger plant. Here we sometimes pay for a large plant, only to find it is a couple of small ones wedged into the same pot.

Also I bought a couple of catasetum, and expected for the money to get a decent sized plant, only to find they were small backbulbs pulled off a larger plant with a minute shoot.

This has happened to me on a few occasions, and it does tend to happen with Catasetinae more so than other orchids. Generally speaking, I don't mind it if there's something to work with and if the divisions are reasonably healthy because it can be more bang for my buck, it can be insurance against mishaps, and it can be a bit of a project. I also tend to not mind this because I have an idea of how I could make this work. For example, this happened to a Laelia anceps I purchased. I got multiple divisions in one pot, (I think I had 4 divisions)! I didn't realize it upon purchase though. When I bought it, it looked like one reasonably sized division. Only 1 division made it, (ironically it was the smallest and ugliest looking division), but it looks in really rough shape. But I can still say I have a Laelia anceps. I don't really blame the seller though. I knew ahead of time they were not orchid specialists. I bought the Laelia anceps from a local nursery that deals with many other kinds of plants.

On the flip side, if the vendor knew before selling that the orchid back bulb was not going to survive or do anything for the buyer, then, yeah, it can be problematic. Especially when the seller is trying to sell you a healthy orchid, and they bait and switch you. Indonesia is kind of known for the baiting and switching thing...it's not just with orchids...it's pretty much with anything some people in Indo think they can get away with...

It is also up to people to do their homework too though. I can excuse someone who's green to some degree or another, but with someone who has been growing orchids for a long time, it was either a bait and switch technique that did them in, they decided to take a gamble anyways, or there's really no excuse for ignorance if the seller was being honest and forthright (especially if there's complaining involved on the part of the buyer). For an experienced hobbyist to knowingly buy a single back bulb from a seller who advertises what they are selling is such a thing, is simply on the buyer.

Admittedly, there're a lot of gray areas regarding some of the topics in this thread. This was why I was kinda hesitant to participate in it. It's not so simple and clear cut sometimes.

In some cases, some of the topics discussed are kind of like what Leafmite just explained.

---------- Post added at 08:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:43 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Orchid Whisperer

Arched flower spikes. Some orchids, notably Phalaenopsis, arch naturally if not staked. I would not call this a trick, even if staked; many vendors stake spikes to give a more upright appearance. This is just presentation.

I tend to agree with this statement. I used to work for a large orchid nursery that dealt primarily with Phals. Presentation was the intent. The nursery owners knew that the Phals had spikes that tended to arch and make the plant top heavy, but in order to make the plants more presentable for sale, workers had to train the spikes.

I've mentioned the technique of training Phal spikes before, a long time ago. I don't mention it so often nowadays because not many people talk about it. This is actually a common technique amongst nursery growers. This is what floral wire is primarily used for.

So, yeah, it is a growing technique, not necessarily a "trick". It's just that if people are not aware, they tend to believe the illusion that their Phals are supposed to bloom on an upright growing inflorescence when that is not necessarily the case. Once people are aware, then it is understood quite well what the purpose is.

Originally Posted by Orchid Whisperer

Blue (or other dyed) flowers. When these first started appearing in stores, the plants usually were not labeled as dyed. Marking the tag as dyed is more common now (I don't care for the odd colors, but as long as the grower is meeting a demand, and is honest about the dye job, I am OK with this practice).

The practice of dying Phals or Dendrobiums annoy me, label or no label. So I'm on the different end of the spectrum. I understand that I'm in the know, but that's because I've been in the hobby long enough to know and I can actually read the tags. My parents are not orchid enthusiasts and they are immigrants whose English is kind of shoddy. They know a few words, phrases, or sentences here and there. When it comes to reading labels or tags on products, this is something they struggle with. That's where I come in and do the translating if I'm there when they make purchases. For people like my parents, they're the ones who think that they're getting a blue flowered orchid when it is really a white Phal dyed blue. I think you guys are getting where the gray areas lie.

Again, I didn't want to jump on this thread right away because of the gray fuzz.

Originally Posted by Orchid Whisperer

Minor misinformation. Fragrance: I have some orchids that are fragrant during some bloom events, not fragrant during others. I have a Cattlianthe Golden Wax that I have had for 32 years, it has mostly been non-fragrant, but 2 years ago, bloomed with a wonderful, strong spicy and sweet fragrance (and no fragrance during later blooms either).
There are of course orchids that are only fragrant at certain times of the day, or fragrant during certain parts of the flower's bloom time.

What Orchid Whisperer described is a pretty common thing. People can't forget that orchids are varied even within a species or a particular kind of hybrid. Genetic variance is part of the process for natural selection to take place. Within a given species or hybrid, it is possible for there to be dwarves amongst the genetic mix or plants that are not fragrant when other individuals in the same species or hybrid are.

Again, a lot of haze. It's not so clear cut.

---------- Post added at 08:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Bulbopedilum

2. Give lots of light This is not so common but is still done by some. This "give lots of light" applies to normal plants, but not to orchids! Orchids need less light than most plants, and some even desire FULL shade! Only vandas, brassavola, cymbidium, and some other orchids like light, not your typical phalaenopsis though.

There's not a whole lot of context behind this as being a problematic piece of advice that the sellers give to buyers. If there's more context to why you think it is an issue, maybe it'd be easier to discuss.

Originally Posted by Bulbopedilum

4. Garden Soil Some orchid vendors are so dumb that they use normal garden soil for orchids! Never use garden soil for orchids! The roots will choke and DIE! They die because orchids grow in very aerated media in nature, even the terrestrial ones wn't take soil.

If the orchids do not grow terrestrially, using potting soil is problematic. This is less of a problem in Western nations, although, on occasion it still pops up from time to time. If the sellers were being honest, and if the buyer buys it anyways, this is on the buyer. The buyer may have had their own reasoning to buy it, but they are essentially taking a gamble. If it was a bait and switch situation, that is just a cruel trick on the part of the seller.

Originally Posted by Bulbopedilum

5. Plain old SCAMS Yes, some people can scam you with orchids! This is not harmful to orchids, but is harmful to YOU! Yes, YOU! Some Chinese sellers supposedly sell Orchis Italiana, Caleana Major, and Black Phalaenopsis seeds. They are FAKE. Orchid seeds are dust-like and white. Sellers usually give you baby's breath, dragonfruit, or in some cases, marvel of peru seeds. This can make you a criminal if you don't have permits.

Hobby seed permits are free in the US. You just have to go through the annoying process of having to register with APHIS/USDA. Just be aware that APHIS/USDA are not your friends, sometimes some of the personnel are plain a-holes that find joy smirking at you, giving you a hard time, and taking shots at you if you meet them in person. (Typing this makes me remember when that happened to me. What I wouldn't give to plant my fist in their jaws. I lost half my shipment due to unnecessary damage because of their smugness.)

Anyways...

China has got a lot of poor people trying to make a buck and stay alive. I can't blame them for trying to feed themselves and their families, but that country's got a lot of growing to do when it comes to being honest. Now that people have caught on, it is easier to know that these are scams.

Originally Posted by Bulbopedilum

6. Poached Orchids This is uncommon nowadays but is still existent! Some people go out and pluck orchids straight out of their natural habitat! Victims include orchis, ophrys, calypso, cypripedium, and some other rare orchids. Don't buy from unreliable sellers! These genuses can be bought from specialist Native Orchid Nurseries.

Again, same issue. It is a matter of people knowing what makes money...

Part of the problem is systemic. It is long and tedious to write about such an issue. But to keep it somewhat brief, let's just say our governments are partly to blame as well. They do very little to save the orchids from habitat destruction even though there are protections in place, and they do even less to serve the hobbyists.

Let's just say, (someone on the OB said this recently when he was talking about parrots, but I've also mentioned this a long time ago as well), the best way to save an orchid is to get it into cultivation. But legislators are not willing to acknowledge this truth. They leave it up to the private sector to deal with, but they put so many restrictions on the private sector that it gets exhausting to try.

I know I might get some people who might disagree with my statements about saving an orchid through cultivation, (mostly because I have been challenged on this notion many times in the past), but I'm sticking to this. Again, gray areas if you get down to details, but with this, I'm gonna stand my ground.

[Orchid Whisperer]

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

Let's just say, (I think it was Orchid Whisperer who said this recently when he was talking about parrots, but I've also mentioned this a long time ago as well), the best way to save an orchid is to get it into cultivation. But legislators are not willing to acknowledge this truth. They leave it up to the private sector to deal with, but they put so many restrictions on the private sector that it gets exhausting to try.

I know I might get some people who might disagree with my statements about saving an orchid through cultivation, (mostly because I have been challenged on this notion many times in the past), but I'm sticking to this. Again, gray areas if you get down to details, but with this, I'm gonna stand my ground.

With all due respect, I think you are thinking of someone else. Some orchids do well in cultivation, and can be saved from extinction if they are at least cultivated, some don't do well in cultivation. I am a proponent of saving the habitat and not field collecting (habitat preservation has the benefit of protecting not only the big attractive plants and charismatic macrofauna, but also protect the scruffy little "weeds" and "bugs" that may be the next cure for cancer, or support some food web that we won't recognize until 50+ years later).

I suppose all orchids have to come from the wild in some fashion, even the ancestors of our hybrids. I would prefer that hobby orchids come from nurseries, not wild places. Every orchid I have came from a vendor, or through trading with people for divisions of plants long in cultivation.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Strict mycoheterotrophs such as Corallorhiza maculata are usually the ones that are impossible to grow in cultivation.

I am not a proponent of handling these in any manner for our hobby.

Habitat protection is also very important.

These are very long topics to talk about. Perhaps another thread can be made for this discussion if anyone really cares to talk about it in any kind of detail. For the purposes of this thread, I will not really go too in-depth with it.

Let's just say it is complicated and there needs to be a combination of lots of things going on to make it really work.

Ideally, it would be better to obtain seeds from wild stock to prevent inbreeding in the stock we have in cultivation than to pluck orchids out from the wild. This is a far more sustainable practice. At the same time, we cannot seek to punish or condemn private citizens who wish to save their orchids if they know that there is a construction site where their native orchids are growing, and our respective governments or construction crews do nothing to save those orchids.

Again, these are gray areas.

The problem hobbyists see with "hybrid vigor" versus species losing vigor over time is because of inbreeding, not because species orchids are less vigorous than hybrids. In the years I've grown orchids, I cannot say that hybrids are more vigorous than species orchids is true. I can document how vigorous a well bred species orchid can be and show people that hybrid vigor is a load of hooey. For example, when the entire hobby is only working with plants that originated with only 3 genetically distinct plants within a species that's just not good for the future of that plant in the hobby. I think it is not only to our advantage, but to the orchid's advantage as well when inbreeding is not prevalent in our hobby.

[bil]

Another thing that hacks me off is when the plants have been bred and bred for size of flower, whatever and the scent has been lost. I have a couple of A. sesquipedal that have no scent at all, and I did want them scented.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Originally Posted by bil

Another thing that hacks me off is when the plants have been bred and bred for size of flower, whatever and the scent has been lost. I have a couple of A. sesquipedal that have no scent at all, and I did want them scented.

Is this true even in the evening hours?

[Salixx]

I can handle a lot of stuff. Vendors don't always know how to care for a plant, etc. I typically pull out my phone and do a quick google search if I am concerned.

What really irks me though is the misrepresentation of plants. I purchased once and only once from a well respected vendor. Two of the three "plants" purchased were two divisions stuck in one pot. On one species, a Coelogyne, the divisions each only had one mature bulb and one immature bulb - far from the advertised "blooming size" plant I had been sold.

Short of only buying in person and unpotting the plant before purchase, I'm not sure how the above can be completely avoided. I won't purchase twice from a vendor that has done this though.

[bil]

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

Is this true even in the evening hours?

Oh yes, I was sniffing all the hours god sends. I knew it was an evening scented one, so every evening I was in there sniffing.
Also, if I am honest, the flower wasn't as good as I was expecting. The nectary was nowhere near a foot and a half, and the flower didn't look as clean as I was expecting, if that makes sense.

That of course may well have nothing to do with the scent.