Beginner Vivarium with Micro Mini Orchids

[PaphMadMan]

The fan Salixx suggests looks like a good choice since it conveniently comes wired with a USB connector for power, and is quite small. Minimum of 2 and place them where they won't get wet. They definitely will need some additional protection for frogs. You can find cheaper fans but the may require some wiring work.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

If there are going to be any kind of moving mechanical parts in the tank along with the frogs, the frogs need to be kept away from them. The thumbnail dart frogs can get through small cracks very easily, and they are excellent climbers. Larger dart frogs can climb real well too. Something like Oophaga histrionica, may be about 1.5" to 2" long, but they are good climbers even if they are a bit more clumsy than their smaller cousins. These frogs can frequently be found jumping around towards the top of the tank clinging to the glass. Even a species of dart frog that is said to stay mostly on the ground are excellent climbers. Do not ever think for a moment they will never climb the tank walls even though some people say they mostly stay on the ground. You'd be safer automatically assuming that ALL dart frogs are good climbers. This is coming from personal experience, not from reading what other people are saying in forums or books. Dart frogs love climbing, it doesn't matter at all what species they are, they all climb and they're good at it.

Something like a fan that is exposed to the frogs inside the tank is absolutely deadly to a dart frog. They love dark nooks and crannies. These frogs are very inquisitive about places like these because those are the kinds of places they like to hide or sleep in.

If you're gonna use a fan for the tank's circulation, make sure to find a way for the frogs to not get into the fans as PaphMadMan had mentioned.

[PaphMadMan]

I forgot to comment on Ficus pumila. I wouldn't use it in this case. It is far too vigorous. Eventually it will cover every surface, even the glass, and you will spend all your time trying to control it. It will smother most other plants that would be in scale for this size tank. You won't be able to get rid of it because even a tiny piece left in a crevasse will come back to haunt you.

Great choice in a tougher environment where you want to make sure something will grow, but it can be the monster in the garden in a little piece of paradise like this.

[Evergreenblue]

Wow, thanks for all the comments everyone! I've been busy working on the house, but let me try to address each of the comments...

---------- Post added at 03:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 PM ----------

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

What kind of dart frogs are you planning to get?

I've got some dart frogs myself.

I plan on getting 2-3 Dendrobates azureus. I initially fell in love with the Ranitomeya ventrimaculata, but after enough research, decided I should go with these guys for my first frogs.

---------- Post added at 03:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:20 PM ----------

Originally Posted by PaphMadMan

You were already considering the heat and light issues, good. And getting other things settled and stable and knowing what to expect before adding orchids is a good plan.

Some air exchange with the outside is necessary, but air movement inside is also necessary, and increases in importance as humidity or frequency of misting increases. Fungal and bacterial rot problems can set in fast if there isn't enough air movement.

Will your mist system be on a timer or controlled by a sensor? What humidity do the frogs need?

These frogs prefer humidity in the 70-100% range, so pretty humid. I purchased the MistKing starter set with the hygrostat controller so I can set the humidity for daytime and nighttime.

---------- Post added at 03:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Salixx

I'll chime in since I just built something similar (no frogs though!).

I have a 10g paludarium with the standard glass top and am using the Finnex Planted+ fixture (not the 24/7 but I think the only difference is the customization features on the 24/7) . So far it is working well, however, I would only recommend medium to low light species for it. The medium light species would have to be closer to the light, while lower light ones farther away or protected by other plants.

Air circulation is important, especially in damp environments. I use one of these fans: Amazon.com: Yoosion 40mm Fan Quiet Mini 5v Fan PC Cooling 4cm USB Fan for Router, Computer, Watertank,Car: Computers & Accessories . They are small and easy to hide. If you go this route, I would get two for a 20g and put them in the upper corners. I don't know much about dart frogs, so I am going to assume they climb. With that in mind, you'll want to make some kind of cage around the fan to keep them from getting their little feet (or worse) caught in them. The fan does already have a barrier on one side, but I'm not sure it's good enough.

I have the Planted+ 24/7 on one of my aquariums and it seems like it penetrates the water pretty well, and I figured without water it would be adequate. The branches of the wood are only a few inches from where the light would be, do you think that is adequate? I was also considering the new Planted+ SE; I think it puts out a little better light profile which might be more conducive to photosynthesis... thoughts?

Regarding the fan, I went ahead and purchased this:
Amazon.com: AC Infinity MULTIFAN S1, Quiet 80mm USB Fan for Receiver DVR Playstation Xbox Computer Cabinet Cooling: Computers & Accessories
and this controller:
Amazon.com: AC Infinity CONTROLLER 2, Fan Thermostat and Speed Controller, for Home Theater AV Media Cabinet Cooling: Home Audio & Theater

I also purchased a filter and gasket. I figured I would mount it to the top of the tank. Do I really need two? I figured if I had one supply fan and two vents or a long vent along the back, it would circulate the air enough without drying out the tank... which is something I worry about.

---------- Post added at 03:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:29 PM ----------

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

Words of advice...

Selaginella kraussiana will grow into a dense groundcover very quickly. Other species of Selaginella grow much slower and are not necessarily quite as hardy.

Don't ever grow Fittonia verschaffeltii if you want a very low maintenance dart frog tank. In a terrarium/vivarium where the temperatures are stable and humid, these will grow extremely fast.

I was planning on using Selaginella kraussiana... Is this too aggressive? I also wanted to plant some Utricularia sandersonii around where I've made a depression, and some mosses along the substrate... would all of this be too much you think?

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[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Ranitomeya ventrimaculata were my first foray into dart frogs!

They are affordable and really colorful. A trio, in some cases, will cost you a little bit more than 1 Dendrobates azureus.

These guys also tend to be very visible and active. As a species, these frogs are not really all that shy.

I love them.

I currently have a group of them. I also got them to breed. They are the second species in my group of dart frogs that bred.

The tadpole has grown legs already and is showing golden stripes, (one along each side of the body by where the eyes are).

To me, they were not terribly difficult to keep.

[Evergreenblue]

Originally Posted by PaphMadMan

I forgot to comment on Ficus pumila. I wouldn't use it in this case. It is far too vigorous. Eventually it will cover every surface, even the glass, and you will spend all your time trying to control it. It will smother most other plants that would be in scale for this size tank. You won't be able to get rid of it because even a tiny piece left in a crevasse will come back to haunt you.

Great choice in a tougher environment where you want to make sure something will grow, but it can be the monster in the garden in a little piece of paradise like this.

Wow, I didn't realize so many of these plants would be this aggressive. I wasn't set on vining plants anyway... would any of the smaller Marcgravia sp. be ok?

---------- Post added at 03:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:38 PM ----------

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

Ranitomeya ventrimaculata were my first foray into dart frogs!

They are affordable and really colorful. A trio, in some cases will cost you a little bit more than 1 Dendrobates azureus.

These guys also tend to be very visible and active. As a species, these frogs are not really all that shy.

I love them.

I currently have a group of them. I also got them to breed.

The tadpole has grown legs already and is showing golden stripes, (one along each side of the body by where the eyes are).

To me, they were not terribly difficult to keep.

Well, some day I believe I'll have those little guys, they're incredible! I've already gone down the path of keeping the azureus though, with the 20 long... By the way, since I've posted enough I can try and show what I've got set up so far:


Top view:

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

I really don't know much about carnivorous plants such as Utricularia sandersonii, but if it grows slow, I wouldn't be growing Selaginella kraussiana and Utricularia sandersonii together. Selaginella kraussiana can overtake smaller, slower growing plants.

Dart frogs love leaf litter btw. And make sure whatever you're using for the ground will not adhere to their skin. Even something like coconut coir stuck on their skin is irritating to them.

For example, if pieces of coconut coir get stuck on their skin, they will try to scratch it off.

[Evergreenblue]

Thanks for the tips, King. I've read that the U. sandersonii will grow well in the water-logged areas, which I've tried to create, so hopefully they'll find their spot. It sounds like terrestrial species of orchids are probably out of the picture though, which is fine, I have plenty of branches to mount to!

[Salixx]

Originally Posted by Evergreenblue

Wow, thanks for all the comments everyone! I've been busy working on the house, but let me try to address each of the comments...

I have the Planted+ 24/7 on one of my aquariums and it seems like it penetrates the water pretty well, and I figured without water it would be adequate. The branches of the wood are only a few inches from where the light would be, do you think that is adequate? I was also considering the new Planted+ SE; I think it puts out a little better light profile which might be more conducive to photosynthesis... thoughts?

I took another look at the Planted+ 24/7, and I think the FugeRay Planted+ (what I got) is better in terms of red LEDs, which might be more important in terms of flowering. The 24/7 SE has those same lights, so is probably better than the standard 24/7. However, I am a cheap skate and would just go with the FugeRay over the 24/7 because you get good light at a significant cost reduction compared to the 24/7. Not sure if this helps, but I have found AquaCave.com to be far cheaper than Amazon in regards to Finnex lighting and I got my light almost as fast (free USPS priority shipping) as my Prime shipping.

You're set up, in terms of closeness to the light, sounds similar to mine. I have a Dryadella cristata which is more or less in the medium light range is turning purple as a result. I only say this in terms of reference as I don't get into the technical stuff and simple go off what my plants respond to. I might also add that I successfully bloom higher light plants, like my Den. moniliforme and Laelia praestans, under this same light (about 6-7'' distance) in a different set-up.

Regarding the fan, I went ahead and purchased this:
Amazon.com: AC Infinity MULTIFAN S1, Quiet 80mm USB Fan for Receiver DVR Playstation Xbox Computer Cabinet Cooling: Computers & Accessories
and this controller:
Amazon.com: AC Infinity CONTROLLER 2, Fan Thermostat and Speed Controller, for Home Theater AV Media Cabinet Cooling: Home Audio & Theater

I also purchased a filter and gasket. I figured I would mount it to the top of the tank. Do I really need two? I figured if I had one supply fan and two vents or a long vent along the back, it would circulate the air enough without drying out the tank... which is something I worry about.[COLOR="Silver"]

That is a bigger fan that I went with, so it may be adequate. I would get your tank set up with your starter plants and test it out. Those on the opposite side of the tank should at least tremble a little bit - if not, you'll probably need a second fan. Many orchids, even those who love moisture such as Pleuros, will resent standing water on their leaves for too long so you'll want to make sure they dry enough without zapping all the moisture in the environment.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Most terrestrial orchids generally don't like water logged situations. Some orchids sold as terrestrials are not even true terrestrials that grow in soil, some are actually lithophytes, so it can be tricky to know which ones are which without some extensive research that goes beyond just looking around or asking around in orchid forums.

Keep in mind orchid forums are a resource, not your only resource.