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  #11  
Old 07-03-2016, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by gdupont View Post
Not sure what you feel you have to prove, and also not sure why you're taking it out on me. If you have a problem with the term "extinct in the wild," I would suggest you take it up with the IUCN.

2001 IUCN Red List Categories and Criteria version 3.1



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Seriously?! I'm "taking it out on you" because you posted what I disagree with. And with all due respect if you consider someone disagreeing with you and engaging you in a debate to be some sort of attack or persecution, the internet isn't the place for you! It's apparent you are possessed of a temperament to which I have no wish to expose myself further.
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Old 07-03-2016, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Subrosa View Post
Seriously?! I'm "taking it out on you" because you posted what I disagree with. And with all due respect if you consider someone disagreeing with you and engaging you in a debate to be some sort of attack or persecution, the internet isn't the place for you! It's apparent you are possessed of a temperament to which I have no wish to expose myself further.


With all due respect, you spent more time trying to correct my phrasing than actually considering my question... I'm sorry that you misinterpreted my response as coming from someone with a poor temperament. I thought the superfluous debate would be ended when I expressed to you that I understand what extinct means. When you followed it up by essentially saying I didn't, I found that quite disrespectful.


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  #13  
Old 07-03-2016, 11:03 AM
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A while back I sowed some Laelia anceps seeds on my tree and they germinated. A few of the seedlings are nearly blooming size. When they bloom it's doubtful that they will be naturally pollinated. And even if I pollinate them it's extremely unlikely that the seeds would germinate on other people's trees. Most people don't have drip systems in their trees.

I wonder what prevents the Laelia gouldiana from "escaping" in Mexico? Is its pollinator (locally) extinct? Is the area surrounding the private property too dry? If it isn't too dry... is the fungus that the seeds need to germinate (locally) extinct?

If it's naturally extinct in the wild... would the conservationists complain if it did manage to escape back into the wild? I'm guessing that the experts don't know where the original population was located. Without this information... you'd figure that any escaping into the wild would be opposed by the "purists". There would be no way to guarantee that the new population was a reintroduction rather than an introduction.

A friend of mine is crazy for tree ferns and he lives in Pacifica. Recently he told me that one of his tree ferns has started volunteering on his neighbor's property. I try to imagine what it would be like if my neighbors' orchids volunteered on my trees.

Anybody ever hear of the free-state project? Let's pretend that a bunch of orchid growers moved to the same town in Mexico. Everybody would have orchids on their trees. Would anybody ever complain about orchids volunteering on their trees? Maybe a species grower would complain about his tree being "infested" with his neighbor's hybrids? So the species grower would have to be constantly "weeding" his trees? The moral of the story would be to only live downwind of people who have pretty much the same orchid preferences as yourself. In economic terms... one person's positive externality is another person's negative externality.
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  #14  
Old 07-03-2016, 02:20 PM
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That is an interesting question... why don't the plants in Hidalgo recolonize suitable habitat? The flowers don't seem specialized enough to require a unique pollinator. I can't find reference to where the Hidalgo plants are now. Perhaps they're at a much different elevation than originally.
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Old 07-03-2016, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by estación seca View Post
That is an interesting question... why don't the plants in Hidalgo recolonize suitable habitat? The flowers don't seem specialized enough to require a unique pollinator. I can't find reference to where the Hidalgo plants are now. Perhaps they're at a much different elevation than originally.
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Laelias of Mexico (Federico Halbinger and Miguel Soto)

HISTORY: Laelia gouldiana was described by Heinrich Gustav Reichenbach in 1888; the same author mentioned also that the marvelous, dark purple color would be difficult to compare. Because Reichenback did not know the material origin of the plant, he suggested that it was a natural hybrid, probably between Laelia autumnalis and Laelia anceps; this cross had been made many times (Laelia Autoceps), and the result has always been very different (see Janson, 1986; photo 70) and so this suggestion has been discarded. For many years now, all plants of Laelia gouldiana have come from the backyards of a small region in the State of Hidalgo, where they grow semi-cultivated on trees and stone fences.

This is an enigmatic plant, since it is unknown in the wild state, and it does not form fertile capsules. The variation seen in this species is narrow, and it is not improbable that all known specimens represent divisions of the same clone.

DISTRIBUTION: Endemic, probably to the Sierra Madre Oriental. It is only known as a cultivated plant in the State of Hidalgo.

HABITAT: Not known. Fortunately, some plants collected in nature were taken away and planted on the roofs of village houses and on nearby trees; and there they have been growing with almost no caretaking. In the months of October and November, the blooming is impressive. The plants have a tendency to form big clumps, and gigantic specimens are known. They are cultivated most often in region of deep ravines, at an altitude of about 1200 to 1900 meters, almost always on mesquite trees, in a semiarid climate. Annual rainfall is less than 500 mm with no fog or frost in the lower stations.

A specimen collected in 1873 indicates as the locality of origin El Chico, Hidalgo, a famous mining town where the plant no longer exists.

WHERE TO SEE: Huge cultivated plants of L. gouldiana are found on mesquite trees between Venados and Metztitlan. Venados is on road MEX 105, between Pachuca and Zacualtipan. Metztitlan is found westwards from Venados, and is reached by a sinuous road at the bottom of the spectacular gorge of Metztitlan, famous for its numerous endemic cacti.

HYBRIDS: There are 13 registered hybrids with L. gouldiana as ancestor in the preceding generation; none is common in cultivation.

CONSERVATION STATUS: Probably extinct in nature, but there is a great number of plants growing in various towns in Hidalgo and elsewhere at present.

*************************

Orchids of Mexico (Hagsater et al)

Arid zones and scrubs

Unlike the scrubs at high elevation in the northernmost portions of the plateau, those found further south and under warmer conditions bear arboreal cacti that give them a spectacular appearance. One such site, in which arboreal cacti offer a magnificent landscape is the Barranca de Metztitlan, in Hidalgo. Rio Metztitlan runs at the bottom of this ravine and on the riverbanks there are extensive pecan groves and other crops. On the mesquites of the houses along the riverbanks three species of Laelia are cultivated, namely, L. anceps, L. gouldiana, and L. speciosa, all of them known locally as monjitas (little nuns). Laelia anceps and L. speciosa have been found as wild populations along the highest parts of the ravine, but L. gouldiana is known only in a semi-cultured state. Other orchids living in the area are Cyrtopodium macrobulbon and Deiregyne confusa.


************

Conservation

Traditional cultivation has resulted in the ex situ conservation of two orchid species that are not known in the wild any longer: Laelia gouldiana (monjita, little nun) and Laelia anceps subsp. dawsonii f. chilapensis (calaverita, little skull). Were it not because some peasants learned how to cultivate them hundreds of years ago, they would not have survived to the present day. Another traditionally cultivated laelia, nearly extinct in nature, is Laelia anceps subsp. dawsonii f. dawsonii, one of the most highly regarded Mexican orchids in worldwide horticulture. The achievement of traditional cultivation of laelias are enormous in a conservation context, providing examples to be followed throughout the world.

Ex situ conservation is usually very expensive and faces many problems, especially because its goal is to maintain a species outside its natural habitat for very long periods. Unlike in situ conservation, it is nearly impossible to preserve the genetic variation and the evolutionary potential of species. Currently there are collections in some countries that are subjected to modern horticultural techniques and may have maintained some orchid species for several years, or exceptionally, up to about a century as in the case of the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew, United Kingdom. Some species, such as the Vietnamese Pahiopedilum delenatii, have persisted thanks to its successful propagation and marketing, which have allowed hundreds of orchid growers to maintain plants of this species in their collections.

On the other hand, there is evidence that Laelia gouldiana and Laelia anceps subsp. dawsonii f. dawsonii have been cultivated for over a century - perhaps much longer - without complex horticultural techniques or external resources. Those plants are traded and produce revenue, although marginal, for the peasants that grow them. Undoubtedly, they have been able to conserve these species outside their habitat and have made a profit from this resource, which is an example of conservation through use. This unparalleled activity should be maintained and encouraged. Nevertheless, it is in danger of disappearing; some growers have had their plants confiscated and sales banned by the environmental authorities. Had these plants not been cultivated by them - and their ancestors -, the species would have become extinct. A public policy of support and fostering of this successful traditional activity is needed.


*************************

Laelia gouldiana does not form fertile capsules... but crosses have been made with it. So... ?

There's a natural hybrid between albida and anceps. Evidently there's some overlap in terms of their distribution, blooming and pollinators.

Laelia anceps, L. gouldiana, and L. speciosa overlap in terms of distribution but speciosa is an early bloomer. I think that anceps and gouldiana overlap with blooming... so if gouldiana isn't producing pods then either the problem is compatibility or pollinators.

In order to solve the mystery... we should all chip in for somebody to spend this Fall in Hidalgo. You're the closest to Hidalgo so I nominate you.
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  #16  
Old 07-03-2016, 05:44 PM
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In order to solve the mystery... we should all chip in for somebody to spend this Fall in Hidalgo. You're the closest to Hidalgo so I nominate you.
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  #17  
Old 07-07-2016, 01:00 AM
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I did some digging, because I bought this from Andy's last December and mounted it on the jacaranda tree in front of my mom's house in southern Orange County, California.

......... etc
Hi, Estacion Seca
Appreciate your detailed answer. I also have a Laelia gouldiana but did not know it's status. Always believed it to be a species (which is what I collect). So if no one has ever located a specimen in the wild can the plant be labelled a species? My understanding is that for a plant to be labelled a species someone would have had to locate a specimen in the wild, collect it and lodge it in a herbarium as a reference for that species (once accepted to be a species).
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Old 07-07-2016, 01:58 AM
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Hi, Estacion Seca
Appreciate your detailed answer. I also have a Laelia gouldiana but did not know it's status. Always believed it to be a species (which is what I collect). So if no one has ever located a specimen in the wild can the plant be labelled a species? My understanding is that for a plant to be labelled a species someone would have had to locate a specimen in the wild, collect it and lodge it in a herbarium as a reference for that species (once accepted to be a species).
There are a few ways to look at the problem....

Nobody ever thought the plants were created, or evolved, in those people's gardens, so it would have been thought they had been wild-collected at some time in the past. But that's a conjecture. Maybe it is a hybrid originating in somebody's garden. Maybe DNA work could help sort it out at some time in the future, though there's not much money to make frm that sort of research, so it's low priority.

At one time giving a name required only publishing a name and description for the plant, and a reference to a plant, herbarium specimen or an image of the plant. Careful botanists published much more detailed information on new species, including type locality and a Latin description, but this was not required. Laelia gouldiana was published in the Gardeners' Chronicle in 1888. A lot of orchids were named this way during the Age of Exploration. Naming rules have changed.

Now the locality has to be given, a specimen must be deposited in a public herbarium, and a description must be published properly, including a Latin description of at least how this plant differs from a close relative. The purpose of the type specimen is so that other students may see exactly what the original namer meant.

Plants that were properly named under old rules are still considered to have been properly named. When the original plant material or herbarium specimen is gone, later taxonomists may assign a new type specimen and reaffirm the name. Sometimes the new type specimen is a drawing or print made of the plant near the time of the original naming, and sometimes the new type is a recently-collected herbarium specimen.

Plants known only in cultivation can be named as species. As mentioned earlier, loads of Agave species are known only from cultivation. Nowadays the person doing the naming would likely try and be pretty sure it's not a garden hybrid or selected form.

It might be that a lot of old Agave family species would not be considered species if discovered now, merely cultivars: They are only known from cultivation; many are clearly one large group of clones; and, some of them never set seed with pollen from the same species, though they can cross with other Agaves.

I wonder why there is regular Laelia gouldiana, and there is Laelia gouldiana 'Greta Garbo', which seems different from the others? People with both in their collections must have tried crossing them in the past. What happened?

After I wrote the above, I went looking to see whether I could find the original description. I did:

The Gardeners' Chronicle, Series 3, Volume 3, January 14, 1888, page 41

As you can read, Heinrich Gustav Reichenbach (the Reichenbach son, for his father was also a botanist) thought it might be a hybrid, and he made no mention whatsoever of where the plant came from. It was named after New York investment banker Jay Gould, who helped build the US railroad system.
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  #19  
Old 07-07-2016, 06:34 AM
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Default Laelia gouldiana - No Herbarium Specimens

So I am finishing the day knowing 2 things I did not know before - a good day. I did check Kew and Tropicos for herbarium specimens. Kew say they have a flower (not referred to as a type specimen). Tropicos claim a type specimen: "HT: Sander s.n.; Dec 1887; A cultivated plant imported from Mexico (W-15726) " (http://http://www.tropicos.org/Name/23521417). So the source is "A cultivated plant". There is also reference to The Gardeners' Chronicle ser. 3 3: 41. 1888.

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Old 07-07-2016, 12:06 PM
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Re 'Greta Garbo' clonal name
There are no rules for clonal names. Any grower can attach a clonal name (so as to recognize a unique trait, better flower, or whatever) to any plant, but it is not registered anywhere - unless the clone later garners an AOS award.

I know growers who attach random clonal names to all their plants. This serves little purpose.

When a serious grower (as Raymond Burr most definitely was) assigns a clonal name, it is an indication that the plant/flower is deserving of special recognition and that it is distinguishable from the general population of these plants.

I have a piece of L gouldiana 'Greta Garbo', and in view of the relative scarcity of L gouldianas in the US, I intend to self-pollinate it this fall.
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