Owning an endangered species?

[Leafmite]

It is a great debate indeed. I like DNA: The Secret of Life for the simple explanation and, of course the many Scientific American articles I've read in the past on the topic. We have fruit trees so we see some of the effects first hand.
With the orchids, carnations, gardenias, jasmines and roses, I feel it is a pity to lose that wonderful, unique fragrance that made them famous just so they can win prizes for their appearance at flower shows. The Angraecums haven't been altered as much in appearance (that is just starting) and I just love the uniqueness of the flowers. It would be a pity to lose that. The breeding is making some of the species almost look like other species or hybrids, they are so different from the original. Some things about a flower are so special, they should be forever preserved.

[AnonYMouse]

Off topic.

The people of Madagascar have other priorities than orchids.

Too bad such amazing environments aren't in developed countries.

[Leafmite]

This is what conservatories are meant to be...a zoo for plants. Then there is the seed bank. They should allow people to go in and collect plants and critters before turning the area into farming and housing. Yes, this is not perfect but it is a shame to lose things forever.
And, no, we cannot criticize others for taking land for their own use...have we not done the same?

[tropterrarium]

Originally Posted by Fairorchids

INCORRECT. If whatever Dept that is responsible for enforcement of the CITES treaty is alerted to the possibility of illegal plants, they raid the grower. This has happened in the past, and can happen again.

The reason that the likelihood of this is less today, is that we have legal populations of plants that were illegal a few years ago (Phrag kovachii, Paph hangianum, Paph vietnamense, etc.).

And, this spills over into hybrids. Hangianum hybrids are technically still illegal, since legal species plants have not been in the US long enough to have produced legal hybrids. In 2-3 years time, that time line will have played out, and it becomes impossible for the plant 'police' to enforce the ban any longer.

There are still some Paph species that are illegal in the US (but not in Canada & Europe, don't ask me why). Untill legal populations can be established here, these are 100% off limits.

Read carefully: once it is *legally in the US*, CITES no longer applies. If it was imported *illegally*, then law enforcement can come at any geographic location. Law enforcement can always investigate suspicions, as with any other aspect of law enforcement.
CITES concerns cross border transfer. By necessity, any violation must be acted upon once it is about to pass or has passed the border line.
Some species are higher on the list than others. All members of Orchidaceae are CITES listed, but who ever gets full CITES documentation when purchasing a "normal" plant? That's why I suggested with certain high visibility plant such as P. kovachii to get copies of all paperwork from the seller. No need to file new paperwork, but a good idea to have copies of the existing one on hand.

There are also laws in the country of origin, and laws in the country of importation, an unholy mess in some cases.

"There are still some Paph species that are illegal in the US (but not in Canada & Europe, don't ask me why)."
Most likely, someone in Canada has filed proper paperwork, but nobody in the US has. The CITES paperwork for each species has to be dealt with for each country and each importation. There is no global CITES permit. The "species" does not suddenly become legal.
There are some cases where Country laws differ and cause confusion. E.g. Narwal ivory is legal in Canada with some documentation, but the US Marine Mammal Protection Act declares all Narwal ivory illegal. Can't be the case with Phaphs, as there are no North American native Paphs, but could be the case with some Cypripediums.

[AussieVanda]

Originally Posted by AnonYMouse

Off topic.

The people of Madagascar have other priorities than orchids.

Too bad such amazing environments aren't in developed countries.

In many cases they were, but 'development' saw the end of that!

[jetflair]

A missing puzzle piece for me, and it may be that while similar in many ways, the laws are plain and simply different:

With exotic (captive-bred wild non-native) felines (also subject to CITES and the ESA), CITES appendix II cats are (subject to additional state and federal laws) legal to own, breed, and transport across state lines. It's merely transporting in and out of the country that requires permits.

But with Appendix I and ESA cats, interstate transportation requires serious-business permits, and violations are prosecuted under the RICO act. This is why I was startled to see that I could order an Appendix I plant and get it shipped to me across state lines.

Because while I possess the permit I would need to own, say, a snow leopard in my home state, I don't possess the permits to trade in endangered species. I would have to get my hypothetical (I don't own endangered felines nor plan to) snow leopard from in-state and hope I never wanted to move out of state.

Violate any part of the above, and I'd be in violation of not "just" the wildlife laws but the RICO act, a serious bit of law designed to prosecute racketeers.

[Subrosa]

Originally Posted by jetflair

A missing puzzle piece for me, and it may be that while similar in many ways, the laws are plain and simply different:

With exotic (captive-bred wild non-native) felines (also subject to CITES and the ESA), CITES appendix II cats are (subject to additional state and federal laws) legal to own, breed, and transport across state lines. It's merely transporting in and out of the country that requires permits.

But with Appendix I and ESA cats, interstate transportation requires serious-business permits, and violations are prosecuted under the RICO act. This is why I was startled to see that I could order an Appendix I plant and get it shipped to me across state lines.

Because while I possess the permit I would need to own, say, a snow leopard in my home state, I don't possess the permits to trade in endangered species. I would have to get my hypothetical (I don't own endangered felines nor plan to) snow leopard from in-state and hope I never wanted to move out of state.

Violate any part of the above, and I'd be in violation of not "just" the wildlife laws but the RICO act, a serious bit of law designed to prosecute racketeers.

A perfect example of the USFWS's inconsistency on the application of the applicable laws. My Blue Throat Macaw is an appendix I species, and as a resident of PA no federal paperwork was required to purchase or transport the bird from NJ where I purchased her back across the river to PA. NJ would have required a special permit to keep her if I was a resident, but since the bird was taken out of state it wasn't required. So in actuality there was less paperwork required BECAUSE I transported the animal across state lines.

[RNCollins]

Originally Posted by DeaC

Try Piping Rock Orchids. I've grown paphs and phrags and need to get better at it. So for now I'm depositing my loose change in the kovachii fund and figure by the time I have enuf I'll have the confidence and smarts to give it a try-they are spectacular!

I got my kovachii from Piping Rock. I think Orchids Limited also sells them.