Ventless fireplace fumes?

[bil]

Originally Posted by silken

Until you have -40C winter and a power failure

Yeah, OK, I am not so envious of that. Minus 40? Did you know that is a 'Gosh' number? You don't need to say whether it is minus 40F or C because minus 40F is the same temp as minus 40C.

There's your deranged fact of the day!

[silken]

Originally Posted by bil

Yeah, OK, I am not so envious of that. Minus 40? Did you know that is a 'Gosh' number? You don't need to say whether it is minus 40F or C because minus 40F is the same temp as minus 40C.

There's your deranged fact of the day!

I'm from the old school where we used imperial measures, so converting to metric has always been not natural for me. So ya, I knew -40 was when they equalled out. It's darn cold, either way!!

[estación seca]

It's not a gosh number, but on the other end 40C = 104 F. And humans are supposed to be 37C = 98.6 F.

[bil]

What grips my **** is that at night I have to run a fan heater in there all night on low, plus a thermostatically controlled heater for when the greenhouse temp gets too low. In the morning at about 9.00 I have to let the little bird out that sleeps in there, I turn off the fan heater, and sut the door, then an hour later I have to open all the doors to stop the greenhouse from turning into an oven.

Sunny Novembers are weird. We have hardly seen a cloud all month!

[PaphMadMan]

So far into a ventless heater discussion and no one has mentioned ethylene? That is the primary issue as far as plant health. Carbon monoxide will kill any humans present long before it affects plants, if it ever does. Unburned hydrocarbons or other fuel components will at least be unpleasant to humans before any serious damage is done to plants.

Ethylene gas is a plant hormone that directly mediates aging of plant tissues, and specifically accelerates wilting and dropping of flowers and leaves. It is produced in any imperfect combustion of carbon sources, and no combustion is perfect. It is not an issue in human health except at very high levels, but short exposure to a tiny trace of it will make an orchid drop its flowers. Longer exposure or higher levels and there go the leaves. Since it isn't a primary human health concern it might not even be considered in whatever regulations or recommendations affect placement of heating systems.

Ethylene produced by a properly functioning heating system in a normally ventilated room might never reach a level of long term health concern for plants, but accelerated flower drop is probably inevitable sooner or later. It might be just fine most of the time, but only you can decide if that is a chance you want to take.

[bil]

Originally Posted by PaphMadMan

Ethylene gas is a plant hormone that directly mediates aging of plant tissues, and specifically accelerates wilting and dropping of flowers and leaves. It is produced in any imperfect combustion of carbon sources, and no combustion is perfect.

OK, never heard of that one in 35 years in the biz. Do you have a reference to this please?

The only reference in combustion products I ever saw was a eutectic graph wrto the C, Co, and CO2 products in balance.

Any appliance with a properly functioning flue, no matter what the fire produces, it will go up the flue and away.

[estación seca]

Use a heavy-duty appliance timer

15A/1800W

40A

I'm sure you can find something for your electric service.

---------- Post added at 12:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 PM ----------

Carbon monoxide will kill plants. It is thought oxidative phosphorylation of carbon sources only evolved once, so all organisms have similar enzymes for this.

Humans die of CO poisoning not because every cell dies, but because our brain cells are much more sensitive and die the quickest of our tissues. The rest of our body could survive an exposure fatal to the brain.

The level of CO necessary to kill a plant is considerably higher than that necessary to kill a mammal.

[PaphMadMan]

Originally Posted by bil

OK, never heard of that one in 35 years in the biz. Do you have a reference to this please?

The only reference in combustion products I ever saw was a eutectic graph wrto the C, Co, and CO2 products in balance.

Any appliance with a properly functioning flue, no matter what the fire produces, it will go up the flue and away.

Sorry, I can't readily cite references for material I learned 35 to 40 years ago in high school and college classes. I know information about ethylene activity as a plant hormone is readily available and will often include a caution about incomplete combustion sources.

Likewise, I presume information about the chemical production of ethylene from hydrocarbon stocks is also readily available, and this would involve breakdown of hydrocarbons by pressure, heat or catalysis without abundant oxygen supply - incomplete combustion. But this information might not usually be in sources about normal combustion of hydrocarbons for heating. It would be a very minor product under normal circumstances and isn't a human health concern, but even ppm concentrations could affect plants.

The original question was about a ventless natural gas fireplace. Was I wrong in assuming this meant no flue? Regardless, a fireplace flue does not remove all combustion gases or you would never be able to smell a wood fire in a fireplace.

[bil]

Originally Posted by PaphMadMan

Sorry, I can't readily cite references for material I learned 35 to 40 years ago in high school and college classes. I know information about ethylene activity as a plant hormone is readily available and will often include a caution about incomplete combustion sources.

Likewise, I presume information about the chemical production of ethylene from hydrocarbon stocks is also readily available, and this would involve breakdown of hydrocarbons by pressure, heat or catalysis without abundant oxygen supply - incomplete combustion. But this information might not usually be in sources about normal combustion of hydrocarbons for heating. It would be a very minor product under normal circumstances and isn't a human health concern, but even ppm concentrations could affect plants.

The original question was about a ventless natural gas fireplace. Was I wrong in assuming this meant no flue? Regardless, a fireplace flue does not remove all combustion gases or you would never be able to smell a wood fire in a fireplace.

Well, if you ever see a reference, I would love to see it. I have no idea how that would work. The only reference I could find as to the production of ethylene by incomplete combustion was a complex, patented process designed to produce commercial amounts.

Yeah, unvented fires means no flue. If the fire is correctly flued, you will NOT smell the products of combustion. What you will smell is the fireplace surround etc being heated.
If you can smell the smoke, then there is a fault. All that crap about which wood smells best while being burned is just that. Pure horsefeathers.