Worm Tea

[Jungeoma]

I have Reverse Osmosis water here in NM and its totally dead. Everything is filtered out, bacteria are killed, micro organisms are killed, there is nothing left in it but wet.
Now you look at rainwater under the microscope and it is teeming with micro organisms and life. Big difference.

[Ray]

Rainwater collected as it falls is mostly "dead", as you called it.

Rainwater collected from runoff from surfaces is a different "creature" altogether, and if you're sampling from a storage container, the resemblance is totally gone, as it is likely contaminated by what was already there.

[bil]

Originally Posted by Ray

Rainwater collected as it falls is mostly "dead", as you called it.

Rainwater collected from runoff from surfaces is a different "creature" altogether, and if you're sampling from a storage container, the resemblance is totally gone, as it is likely contaminated by what was already there.

Ray, one question leads to another.

1. If you collect rainwater and store it, then it will inevitably be contaminated with organics. Is that a problem?

1. You use RO water and very dilute amounts of fertiliser. I hear several people on here talk about CA and Mg deficiency. How do you address that please?

[Ray]

Originally Posted by bil

Ray, one question leads to another.

1. If you collect rainwater and store it, then it will inevitably be contaminated with organics. Is that a problem?

1. You use RO water and very dilute amounts of fertiliser. I hear several people on here talk about CA and Mg deficiency. How do you address that please?

I seriously doubt that the accumulation of organics in the stored water is an issue.

The second question is easy: use a fertilizer that contains plenty of Ca and Mg. I use K-Lite, which is a 12-1-1-10Ca-3Mg formulation.

[bil]

Originally Posted by Ray

I use K-Lite, which is a 12-1-1-10Ca-3Mg formulation.

It's like pulling those 'flags of all nations out of someone's ear. One question leads to another.

Is that the only fertiliser you use?

Why do you use one that is so low in P&K?

Tbh, what I would really like is a quick breakdown of your fertiliser dose system over the year, with the reasons behind your choices please.

[Ray]

OK, Bil. You asked for it!

I feed at 25 ppm N (0.19g/L) at every watering, year round. In summer, that's about every other day, and when it gets gray and cloudy in winter, about every 3-4 days. I have used the K-Lite formula (12-1-1-10Ca-3Mg, plus trace elements) exclusively for three years, used with RO water. About every month or so, I'll add about 4ml/L KelpMax stimulant.

The development of the K-Lite formula was initially based upon the confluence to two, totally unrelated pieces of information related to our backgrounds: potassium toxicity in fresh water mollusks, and potassium issues in glass & ceramic systems. The toxicologist and I took that info and speculated that maybe there are similar issues in plants (The mark of creativity is taking two unrelated pieces of information and applying it to a third, right?). The fact that my doctor changed a medication due to excessive potassium in my bloodwork probably also contributed.

Then, with some searching of the literature, it was noted that in many cases, the chemical analyses of the solutions cascading through the forest canopies - the food source for the epiphytes in them - was almost totally nitrogen, with just traces of the other elements; the exact formulas depending upon the trees and the local geology.

The fact is that NOBODY really knows what the plants need. Instead, it is common for scientists to look at tissue samples, and surmise the formula from that. Unfortunately, that paints a poor picture, because what's in a plant has very little bearing on what it needs.

Some nutrients are taken up passively - if it's available in the environment, it'll be in the plant. If it's there in high concentration, it will be high in the plant, and vice versa, so the tissue analysis tells you about the environment, not the requirements of the plant. Plants also have nutrient "pumps" that actively absorb nutrient ions and sock them away in cell vacuoles, "saving them for a rainy day" when the outside supply is insufficient. Potassium is one of those minerals that are stored in excess, so unless you're providing essentially none, the tissue analysis will invariably show relatively high levels in the plant - again, not a measure of what's needed. In my talks to orchid societies I point out that if tissue analysis was an accurate measure of what's needed, I obviously need high cholesterol!

That's why we decided to try the "what's in the environment" approach, and went with a rough estimate of the average "throughfall" and "trunk flow" analyses we gathered, knowing that it's just a guess as much as the tissue analysis, but coming from a different direction. So what we, and mega-corporations like Monsanto, do is hypothesize, test, and observe.

I'll be totally candid and tell you that I was fearful of the formula early on, and under the advice of the PhD that derived it for us, kept a close look-out for signs of P and/or K deficiencies. As I said, I'm now three years into this experiment, and have seen no signs of any deficiency, and in fact, under this regimen, I am very pleased with their growth and blooming.

[Jungeoma]

Ray, in your last two paragraphs you are describing pretty much what I said in my post on 11/11/14.

[bil]

Originally Posted by Ray

OK, Bil. You asked for it!

I feed at 25 ppm N (0.19g/L) at every watering, year round. In summer, that's about every other day, and when it gets gray and cloudy in winter, about every 3-4 days. I have used the K-Lite formula (12-1-1-10Ca-3Mg, plus trace elements) exclusively for three years, used with RO water. About every month or so, I'll add about 4ml/L KelpMax stimulant.

The development of the K-Lite formula was initially based upon the confluence to two, totally unrelated pieces of information related to our backgrounds: potassium toxicity in fresh water mollusks, and potassium issues in glass & ceramic systems. The toxicologist and I took that info and speculated that maybe there are similar issues in plants (The mark of creativity is taking two unrelated pieces of information and applying it to a third, right?). The fact that my doctor changed a medication due to excessive potassium in my bloodwork probably also contributed.

Then, with some searching of the literature, it was noted that in many cases, the chemical analyses of the solutions cascading through the forest canopies - the food source for the epiphytes in them - was almost totally nitrogen, with just traces of the other elements; the exact formulas depending upon the trees and the local geology.

The fact is that NOBODY really knows what the plants need. Instead, it is common for scientists to look at tissue samples, and surmise the formula from that. Unfortunately, that paints a poor picture, because what's in a plant has very little bearing on what it needs.

Some nutrients are taken up passively - if it's available in the environment, it'll be in the plant. If it's there in high concentration, it will be high in the plant, and vice versa, so the tissue analysis tells you about the environment, not the requirements of the plant. Plants also have nutrient "pumps" that actively absorb nutrient ions and sock them away in cell vacuoles, "saving them for a rainy day" when the outside supply is insufficient. Potassium is one of those minerals that are stored in excess, so unless you're providing essentially none, the tissue analysis will invariably show relatively high levels in the plant - again, not a measure of what's needed. In my talks to orchid societies I point out that if tissue analysis was an accurate measure of what's needed, I obviously need high cholesterol!

That's why we decided to try the "what's in the environment" approach, and went with a rough estimate of the average "throughfall" and "trunk flow" analyses we gathered, knowing that it's just a guess as much as the tissue analysis, but coming from a different direction. So what we, and mega-corporations like Monsanto, do is hypothesize, test, and observe.

I'll be totally candid and tell you that I was fearful of the formula early on, and under the advice of the PhD that derived it for us, kept a close look-out for signs of P and/or K deficiencies. As I said, I'm now three years into this experiment, and have seen no signs of any deficiency, and in fact, under this regimen, I am very pleased with their growth and blooming.

I did indeed Ray, and thank you very much. I'm assuming from this that this is the only fertiliser that you use, and you don't bother with boosting K and/or P to generate blooming, but rely on day lengths etc to initiate blooming.

How very, very interesting. I haven't previously heard anyone referring to analysis of the actual water that orchids receive in nature. I must admit I find this intriguing, as in other fields, I have seen when keeping koi that the closer you get to natural food/conditions, the better the result. Common sense tells that if a plant isn't evolved to cope with more than a sniff of fertiliser, then a shedload will do it no good at all.

Tell me, is this fertiliser commercially available, and if I went down the RO route, what type of unit would you recommend. I'm in Spain, the water is as hard as nails. I'm hoping to end up with a nice collection, but not to commercial scales. I'll have most of a 6 metre greenhouse to stock, so how are RO units rated please?

Looking at the whys and wherefores, as we are on a well supply, we would be fine with a thin film membrane, the pump pressure of 3 bar max means we might need a booster pump, and we certainly would need something to prefilter for sediment. I can't predict what my volume needs would be, but with that info, can you make some intelligent suggestions please?

[Ray]

Originally Posted by bil

I did indeed Ray, and thank you very much. I'm assuming from this that this is the only fertiliser that you use, and you don't bother with boosting K and/or P to generate blooming, but rely on day lengths etc to initiate blooming.

No fertilizer nutrient causes or boosts blooming. That is a function of the overall health f the plant, and, as you suggest, of environmental factors. Nutrients can quash blooming, however, if improperly applied.

Tell me, is this fertiliser commercially available, and if I went down the RO route, what type of unit would you recommend. I'm in Spain, the water is as hard as nails. I'm hoping to end up with a nice collection, but not to commercial scales. I'll have most of a 6 metre greenhouse to stock, so how are RO units rated please?

I know that K-lite is available commercially in the US by at least two companies, but beyond that, I cannot say.

Read the info HERE to learn more about RO .

Looking at the whys and wherefores, as we are on a well supply, we would be fine with a thin film membrane, the pump pressure of 3 bar max means we might need a booster pump, and we certainly would need something to prefilter for sediment. I can't predict what my volume needs would be, but with that info, can you make some intelligent suggestions please?

There are low-pressure membranes available that preclude the need for booster pumps. My counter-top RO systems, for example, are rated at 50 gallons/day at 20 psi (190 L/day @ 1.4 bar).

[bil]

Originally Posted by Ray

No fertilizer nutrient causes or boosts blooming. That is a function of the overall health f the plant, and, as you suggest, of environmental factors. Nutrients can quash blooming, however, if improperly applied.

I know that K-lite is available commercially in the US by at least two companies, but beyond that, I cannot say.

Read the info HERE to learn more about RO .


There are low-pressure membranes available that preclude the need for booster pumps. My counter-top RO systems, for example, are rated at 50 gallons/day at 20 psi (190 L/day @ 1.4 bar).

Hmmm, thanks Ray that is very interesting. Tell me, do you ship to Spain?