2 questions: paph Pinocchio and phrag in water saucer

[BillieG]

My paph Pinocchio has bloomed and is very pale. What affects the color of the blooma, and will it always be pale?

Also, should my phrags be in saucers of water? I read that they should, then I read not to put the longer petaled ones in water. How long of petals are considered long? I have a Grande hybrid and a Sorcerer's apprentice. Also a Wallisi hybrid.
Thanks

[MrHappyRotter]

Originally Posted by BillieG

Also, should my phrags be in saucers of water? I read that they should, then I read not to put the longer petaled ones in water. How long of petals are considered long? I have a Grande hybrid and a Sorcerer's apprentice. Also a Wallisi hybrid.
Thanks

"Long petalled" is a layman's term that generally translates to "this phrag is in the caudatum group, or contains members of the caudatum group in its parentage". The problem with layman's terms is that they can be imprecise. The caudatum group refers to section phragmipedium, as seen here.

Either way, Grande and anything with Phrag. wallisii will need some cautious eyes to determine if they are okay to leave sitting in water, since they would obviously both fall into the group of plants with a caudatum group parent. Generally speaking, nearly every Phrag. Grande I've ever encountered will be fine sitting in water year round, so long as there is enough light and the temperatures are warm enough to keep the plant from going dormant or semi-dormant. However, since these are hybrids, each individual plant will have its own temperament and moisture preference/tolerance.

Sorcerer's Apprentice should be more than happy to sit in water at all times and will likely prefer it.

[PaphMadMan]

Paph Pinocchio is quite variable in color intensity, from "alba" green and cream forms to moderately colorful with dark spotting on petals and moderately pink pouch, but rarely would it be described as strongly colored. I'm not sure what you were expecting, but whatever the color potential of your plant it will be at its most colorful if it is well grown, don't over-do the fertilizer, and with relatively bright light and cool temperatures (both within its comfort range) in the months leading up to flowering.

[BillieG]

I was expecting it to look like all the photo's I have seen of it. Oh well, this isn't the first time my orchids have disappointed me. Usually they do that by dying. Seems like I sometimes lose my most favorites while the NOID's hang in there. lol

[Fairorchids]

Since most Paph species have multiple color forms (standard, alba, albescent, etc.), hybrids can turn out with a broad color range, depending upon which forms were used in the breeding.

When breeding, the genetic make-up of parents is not always well documented. This can lead to somewhat surprising results.

In one example, Lehua Orchids bred two seemingly alba plants, but all the off-spring bloomed standard colored. Conclusion: Parents were albescent types and not true albas. Also, the alba traits in the albescent forms was recessive.

Another example, Sunset Valley Orchids selfed a colored Paph venustum, which was known to be 50% alba (recessive trait). I ordered 5 seedlings from this cross, and received:
2 plants with strong coloration at base of leaves
1 plant with weak coloration
2 plants with no coloration

These plants are budding now, so I will get to see them over this coming winter.

[PaphMadMan]

Originally Posted by Fairorchids

In one example, Lehua Orchids bred two seemingly alba plants, but all the off-spring bloomed standard colored. Conclusion: Parents were albescent types and not true albas. Also, the alba traits in the albescent forms was recessive.

Alternate conclusion: There's more than one way for pigment production to be stopped, more than one gene involved. Each parent was a true homozygous recessive alba, but based on different genes. The offspring were heterozygous for both genes, dominant color expression, so recessive alba didn't occur.

[RJSquirrel]

paphs coloring could just merely be the fact that you didnt give it enough light and/or fertilizer to produce the energy needed for a proper bloom. Pinnochio in my past needs a tad more light to get nice looking deeply colored blooms, as do many of the multi floral or sequential bloomers. More light may cure this ill next time.

[Fairorchids]

Originally Posted by PaphMadMan

Alternate conclusion: There's more than one way for pigment production to be stopped, more than one gene involved. Each parent was a true homozygous recessive alba, but based on different genes. The offspring were heterozygous for both genes, dominant color expression, so recessive alba didn't occur.

I know that originally growers did not recognize the distinction between alba and albescent forms, so the makeup of many breeding plants is suspect in that regard.

I was not aware that there could be different genes causing the alba forms. Are there any studies on this subject?

9/14: Alba is not a question of color suppression It is an inability to produce pigmentation. And, it is a known recessive trait, which is fairly common within the Paphiopedilum genus.

My contention is that this is a single mechanism within Paphs, and not due to different genes in different species.

A hybrid bred from two true albas does not start to produce pigmentation.

When unexpected pigmentation occurs, the cause is that one of the two parents was not a true alba, but a so called albescent type. These come in various shades, but common for all is that they have very light/little pigmentation. In some cases it is so lightly expressed, that the grower/breeder does not notice it.

Here are 2 photos of Paph insigne showing the situation. In the first photo there is standard insigne on right, and variety Sanderae on the left. In the second photo is variety Sanderiana.

Sanderiana is a true alba, with zero pigment. Sanderae is an albescent type, with a limited number of pale spots.

In other species, the limited pigmentation in albescent types can be so faint, that it is easily overlooked.

[euplusia]

As a general rule Phrags love their heads in the sunshine and their feet in a moist (not totally wet) ground. They are terrestrials.