Why aren't the blooms on my phals very big?

[james mickelso]

Ok. Flower size. Energy. The flower size when we buy the plant is as large as it will ever get given the growers conditions and culture. I'll use phals as my example. Grower A buys flasks from hybridizer B because the traits the grower wants are in hybridizer B's hybrids. Large flowers, red colors, and maximum flower count for that hybrid. Grower takes the flasks and compots the plantlets. They grow for a year and the grower then repots them to the next size pot. Another year and the grower ships the plants to his wholesaler. From there the wholesaler ships them off to their respective stores. HD, Lowes, Trader Joes. While the grower has them, they are bathed in 75-80 degree temps, bright light, 80% humidity and water very little. Trader Joe gets them and ever since the plant left the grower they have started to become stressed. Now we get them and we stress them even more. Lower temps. Less than optimum light levels. Low humidity. And.....much more water. When we get them to re-flower off the old spike, or flower again from a new spike, they aren't grown in optimal conditions. Hence, less vigor and smaller flowers. The plant doesn't remember what those first conditions were like. It has no memory in which to store any information. But remember that Grower A bought those plants from Hybridizer B for large flowers, high flower count, and red flowers. Most importantly...for Grower A's conditions and culture. This is why your formerly red background turned to yellow. The red and yellow are traits hybridized into the flower. Which ever is dominant will win. But because it is a hybrid, that can change and usually does. It isn't genetically stable. Clones are much more stable than seed bred but much more expensive too. If you grow your phal with the same conditions that Grower A did, your flower size and count will be that with which it was hybridized for. Simple plant physiology. Plants can be tweaked to a certain extent but not much. Take those same phals for example. Growers manipulate the temps and light levels to get them to bloom at certain times of the year. That's why we can get blooming phals any time we go to HD or the other big box stores. I mentioned watering in this tome. When grower A has 10,000 phals in a grow house, the humidity is so high there is little need to water much. But when we get the plant home, what's the first thing we do? Water it. It's already compromised and stressed. I almost always repot the phals that come into my collection. Most of the time I repot right back into moss. Why? Because I can keep the plant damp much more than I can with bark or my usual orchid mix. But I modify the texture and density of the moss. Once the phal is acclimated to my growing conditions I repot it into whatever I want based on my conditions. That's it in the proverbial nutshell. That's how they grow orchids at Gubblers, Carter and Holmes, Petersens, Andy's, and all the grow houses in the far east. It's the guy who can make two cents on each plant instead of 1.48 cents per unit.

---------- Post added at 11:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:14 PM ----------

Oh yeah. Energy. Water and carbohydrates (simple sugars and more complex carbohydrates) create energy in the plant. By means of photosynthesis. Energy is stored within the plant. To be used to grow, or flower, and if there isn't enough, die. All that sugar, starch, minerals, and water are nothing more than energy. It's easier to refer to all that stuff as energy. The plant doesn't chose when to use it. The conditions in which the plant grows does. Through simple chemical reactions.

[RandomGemini]

Okay, that is a lot of information there, James. I understood that the greenhouses that big box store orchids were grown in had very controlled conditions, but it never occurred to me just how controlled they were. My home is nowhere near that controlled! I like a little temperature variation myself.

The flower count on this seems to be about the same as it was on the original two branches, five blooms per spike, in a cluster. So I'm getting a similar display to what it had when I purchased it, just that the flowers are a bit smaller, still a good size, just smaller. The new buds I see opening this morning have the same color variation as the first flowers.

The yellow doesn't really surprise me that much, because I believe this phal has some phal leopard prince in its background somewhere so when I saw the yellow, I assumed it might be related to genetics, but I wondered what triggered that change and if it could be pinpointed to any one specific thing that I did. It's just the change itself that got me, because I hadn't seen one quite this dramatic in my own orchids before.

This is what the plant looks like this morning, you can see the sad sunburned leaf I mentioned earlier in the thread. I'm really bummed about that leaf, because the leaves on this phal were gorgeous when I bought it. I've never purchased a phal from a big box store in such nice condition and then, I had to go and wreck it...

[quiltergal]

I think you will find that the flower color will change with time. The simple process of aging changes the color of most flowers. Who knows how long your plant had been in bloom when you purchased it. The original flowers may have started out exactly as your new ones.

As for smaller flowers on a previously bloomed spike here is my take on it. I also cut the spike when it is finished blooming. This allows the plant to go through a vegetative growth cycle. The more vegetation a plant has the more extra sugars & starches a plant has. The sugars and starches not used in supporting the plant itself can be redirected to growing a new spike. It also stands to reason that a robust plant can support more than one spike as well as many large flowers. I've seen it repeatedly in my own plants. Flower count on old spike re-blooming averages about 5. Flower size is smaller. On a new spike I average between 10-13 with larger flowers. You apparently have seen it for yourself with your mini Phals. Experiment with your standard Phals and cut the spikes. It will be interesting to see what you get next year.

[RandomGemini]

When I purchased this Phal originally, it only had two blooms open. It had several buds that had not finished developing that opened after I got it home. They were all very pink.

Now they are yellow with some pink.

I will cut the spikes on this one and my Phal. Taida Salu. The others, the old spikes dried up on their own, so I cut them back as close to the stem as I could. I do think the plant has more resources to pull from for flower production with more leaves and roots to support it, as you said. So, I will definitely cut the spikes back this time around.

It was fun to leave them and see what they did though!

[lotis146]

This is an interesting discussion as since I've been here learning I've come to understand that when the blooms drop, cut the spike. But just when I thought I had it then I'd hear let the spike die on its own. Being the newbie that I am I've only actually had one plant that's flowered, blooms died, then had it come back around, sort of. Before I ever knew to cut the spike I left it and this particular Phal rebloomed but only a few smaller, weaker flowers. So it made perfect sense to me to cut the spike once I learned this. But then I wonder, what about letting them die on their own...? What about keikis??

I have noticed as well on a current Phal, when I got it in bloom but with many unopen buds. All of the flowers are pretty big EXCEPT the latest buds to open. It's a big spike with two branches and a smaller shorter spike has been growing for several weeks now. There are at present 17 flowers (two fell off a couple weeks ago after suffering woman-made drought (at my hands). I didn't repot this beauty when I got it but after 3.5 wks no water and some suspect bugs I repotted in moss (all I had at that place). It's lost 3 leaves in the last 2 wks & suffered mold on the moss. Oh and when I did repot it it had some rot but wasn't real bad, but also didn't have a big root system. The new spike is small and growing horizontally, has only 2 buds.

I got this plant from Hausermann's and I worried then, actually I felt bad getting all the plants I did. There they were in this very humid environment with bright indirect light, a seemingly happy, happy world, then i was going to snatch them up and take them to my "world", whatever that means. The first buds to open under my care seemed pretty normal but these last couple of ones are a bit smaller and the pink on them is a little more faded.

I'm no scientist but it makes sense to me that with changing environments including additional stresses (as in my case) the plants' will respond accordingly. After all pigments in most things react to changes in light, temperature, and nutrient levels. I'm sure if we could see more on the color spectrum there'd probably be a lot of other changes going on!! I have Tolumnia Buck Hollow x Sib & it's color is more faded in the morning and evenings but in the afternoon they seem more vibrant, there's more contrast.

I think it's kind of exciting to think your flowers aren't going to be the same every time, then again not if you think it's perfect from the start then don't like its changes.

Thanks for sharing your plant and experience! It's really beautiful btw. This really imparts upon me the importance of taking some pics when they flower, I'm nerdy like that and like to keep track when I've got my organization in order.

[NYCorchidman]

Originally Posted by RandomGemini

I have a phal, (Phal. Taida Salu) that had the red turn from a bright apple red, to an almost purple color after I moved it under artificial lights. It's also warmer in that room. I assumed it was the lighting, not the temperature that made the blooms turn darker as new ones opened.

That's interesting... and it would account for the color change here too actually, because the previous blooms on this plant were opening in late November, and these are opening in May and it's definitely warmer. We keep the house at 68 in the winter. My office (where I grow most of my orchids) is warmer due to the lights and the humidity and a bunch of other factors, but I have never put this plant up there.

I'm okay with this color change. I like that it's less uniformly pink now. It gives it some character. I've got 7 more buds opening up on this phal.. it'll be interesting to see what they each look like as they open, if the color is this uniform, pink and yellow, or if some flowers open more pink.

I honestly never bothered to notice that on my other phals before, but I've never had one do something this noticeably different before either. Kinda neat.

I love this hobby. I'm learning so much!

Higher light definitely helps too because plants will make more carbohydrates as long as the light intensity is not too high, which will then stress the plant that needs moderate light.
Still, it is the temperature that is the key factor because no matter how much sugar is made, without the cooler temperature, they will not be converted & stored into forms that are responsible for the red color.

Phals mostly bloom around winter for me, so I normally see the same dark red on the ones that came that way.
Occasionally, they will bloom at odd times like late spring or in the middle of summer. then they have much less red.

I had Taida Salu and it would be beautiful red in the winter, and more orange during the warmer season due to more yellow background showing up.

I also had dark dark purple fragrant phal. It is one of those phals that bloom for years on end.
The ones that open from late fall into winter are always the prettiest, and then other times of the year, they open up as white flowers heavily spotted with fine little purple specks.

---------- Post added at 11:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:06 AM ----------

Originally Posted by lotis146

This is an interesting discussion as since I've been here learning I've come to understand that when the blooms drop, cut the spike. But just when I thought I had it then I'd hear let the spike die on its own. Being the newbie that I am I've only actually had one plant that's flowered, blooms died, then had it come back around, sort of. Before I ever knew to cut the spike I left it and this particular Phal rebloomed but only a few smaller, weaker flowers. So it made perfect sense to me to cut the spike once I learned this. But then I wonder, what about letting them die on their own...? What about keikis??

I have noticed as well on a current Phal, when I got it in bloom but with many unopen buds. All of the flowers are pretty big EXCEPT the latest buds to open. It's a big spike with two branches and a smaller shorter spike has been growing for several weeks now. There are at present 17 flowers (two fell off a couple weeks ago after suffering woman-made drought (at my hands). I didn't repot this beauty when I got it but after 3.5 wks no water and some suspect bugs I repotted in moss (all I had at that place). It's lost 3 leaves in the last 2 wks & suffered mold on the moss. Oh and when I did repot it it had some rot but wasn't real bad, but also didn't have a big root system. The new spike is small and growing horizontally, has only 2 buds.

I got this plant from Hausermann's and I worried then, actually I felt bad getting all the plants I did. There they were in this very humid environment with bright indirect light, a seemingly happy, happy world, then i was going to snatch them up and take them to my "world", whatever that means. The first buds to open under my care seemed pretty normal but these last couple of ones are a bit smaller and the pink on them is a little more faded.

I'm no scientist but it makes sense to me that with changing environments including additional stresses (as in my case) the plants' will respond accordingly. After all pigments in most things react to changes in light, temperature, and nutrient levels. I'm sure if we could see more on the color spectrum there'd probably be a lot of other changes going on!! I have Tolumnia Buck Hollow x Sib & it's color is more faded in the morning and evenings but in the afternoon they seem more vibrant, there's more contrast.

I think it's kind of exciting to think your flowers aren't going to be the same every time, then again not if you think it's perfect from the start then don't like its changes.

Thanks for sharing your plant and experience! It's really beautiful btw. This really imparts upon me the importance of taking some pics when they flower, I'm nerdy like that and like to keep track when I've got my organization in order.

I leave all the old spikes on and let them do what they like to do.
Most will terminate the spikes sooner or later. When they are bone dry and brown, I just simply pinch them off.

Of those that stay green, may or may not eventually bloom again, and again, and I do not find decrease in flower size except for one phal that makes lots of flowers which I mentioned in my previous posting.
I believe it is the physics. It needs less weight in order to keep the flowers stay on the spike.

On other phals that rebloom on the older spike, I do see a slight decrese in flower count, but not as pronounced as some others witnessed in theirs.
For example, my phals that normall have around 10, will have around 7 on the rebloom on the same spike. Flowers are all of the same large size.
All at the same time making new spikes with many flowers.

Your flowers will pretty much be the same every time.
They CAN change a little (or a lot, but rarely so and this is when the genetic instability kicks in resulting in some funky stuff) due to slight temperature change affecting flower color tone, or a little bit of pattern change in mostly harlequin types. Those spots will move around each time, so in a sense they are different every time, but really they look almost the same and basically the same unless you count and locate the exact locations of those spots on flowers. but who does that? hahaha

Regarding the environmental cue, not just plants but for all living things, it is all about responding to changing environmental conditions.

[quiltergal]

Originally Posted by NYCorchidman

Of those that stay green, may or may not eventually bloom again, and again, and I do not find decrease in flower size except for one phal that makes lots of flowers which I mentioned in my previous posting.
I believe it is the physics. It needs less weight in order to keep the flowers stay on the spike.

If that were true then secondary blooming on spikes that have been staked would have the same size and flower count as the original spike. I don't find that to be true on any of my Phals.

[NYCorchidman]

It is only my opinion.
Also, staking is irrelevant because I don't phals have evolved to rely on either constant or occasional external help to maintain their spikes.
So whether there is any support or not, they will just rely on its own: that adding more buds on an extended spike off the old spike will add weight. Therefore, make less flowers or make them smaller.
Again, I'm not claiming this is the absolute truth.

I do not see any reduction in flower size on rebloom on my phals. Numbers do go down a little bit as I mentioned earlier.

[RandomGemini]

Well, I missed the last couple of posts here. This has certainly been an interesting discussion! I really appreciate all of the information! It sounds like there are probably a combination of factors that could have caused the reduction in bloom size.

I have a lot to think about!

I wanted to share one more photo of this Phal with most of it's current blooms open. They all seem to be really uniform in color.

[NYCorchidman]

Pretty!