Phalaenopsis mother plant weak with twin keikis

[lotis146]

Hello fellow Orchid enthusiasts,

This is the first of a couple of different threads pertaining to issues I'm having. As I said in my intro post I'm a new hobbyist (and new group member) who's very interested in learning to be more than an amateur. At the moment I struggle to stay consistent in the care of my small collection.

This thread pertains to my Phalaenopsis that I've had for over two years. For over a year now it has twin keikis (they grew from the same node) each with two roots about 8 inches long and three small leaves (one has three roots). For over a month the keikis roots have remained shriveled, they only plump up a bit if I spritz them repeatedly through the day. In the last couple of weeks the leaves have gotten weak and slightly wrinkled. Whereas the mother plant at the same time has gotten much worse. Her leaves are very limp and wrinkled, one of them is mostly yellow. I haven't yet checked the roots but on the surface it has one good 4 inch root.

I believe this occurred because I was afraid to over-water it as I tend to do and have done with this plant before. I've reduced it to this state once before, which was when the keikis started to form, then I repotted it in different medium and a different pot and its leaves returned to good health (firm, no more wrinkles) & the keikis flourished. I plan to repot today. I'm looking for advice with the keikis most especially.

I'm slightly confused as I know that they should be able to survive still attached to the mother and while I'd like to repot them anyways I'm concerned with their roots. The centimeter or so at the end of the root, normally a glossy light green (vs. the greenish-white of the rest of the root) has been reduced to less than half a centimeter and is slightly darker green. As they grew from the same node detaching them is what has kept me nervous about removing them. Yesterday I noticed the smallest amount of growth in the node just below them which I do not want to disturb.

My plan is to cut just below them on the mother spike and to twist one of them off to separate them. But I've been given the advice not to twist but to cut them where there division is. Their roots are hanging straight down. Is it best to curl them up in a smaller pot then or...?

Hopefully I've provided enough detail and not too much. Oh and the mother hasn't flowered in over a year, since the keikis who haven't grown a new leaf in at least 6 months. Six months or so ago was probably the last the mother grew a new leaf. The stem from the last inflorescence shriveled up probably 4 months ago. I've been loath to cut things but I have learned the error in my ways.

This plant has never been fertilized since I've had it and received no treatment other than repotting in a nursery bought Orchid mix of charcoal, lava rock & bark & a ceramic pot with holes (fancy designs) around the sides. I plan to pick up some fertilizer (assuming I can in my area) today as well as check the roots for rot and death and trim them. I'll also remove the yellowed leaf and repot in fresh medium and remove the keikis.

Any advice? All help is greatly appreciated, thank you.
(Next I'll post about my Paphiopedilum & mini Phal, also suffering at my hands! :-()


Lotis

[Ray]

Hi Lotis. Welcome to the group.

First, I want to stress that water is not the issue with orchids, air is. They can be totally wet all the time, as long as the potting medium allows plenty of air flow to the roots.

Remove and pot up the keikies. Personally, I'd have done so when they got to 4" of total root length (1 @ 4", 2 @ 2", etc.), to avoid the long roots, but they can be dealt with.

After removing them from the spike (I'd completely remove the spike from the mother plant, too. More on that later.), completely submerge them in lukewarm water for at least 30 minutes. If you can get hold of KelpMax, K-L-N, SuperThrive, or some other rooting hormone liquid, it cannot hurt to add that to the water.

Put an inch or more of medium in the bottom of the pot, and put a keiki into it with a gentle rotating motion, giving the now-somewhat-supple roots a spiral. They are going to crack or out-and-out break - don't worry too much about it. Add the rest of the fresh potting medium up to the base of the plant, water it in thoroughly, again with warmish water, and you're done. Keep them as warm as you can, and shady.

Water them again when the medium approaches becoming dry, and they'll take off.

Now then, unpot the mother plant. I'll bet that the submerged roots are in terrible shape, so it has been difficult for the plant to support itself and the keikies.

Assuming I'm correct, trim off all of the rotted roots. Parts of roots that are still firm can remain, but remove anything that is soft or squishy. Let the plant air dry overnight, then repot it in fresh potting medium, and treat it like the keikies.

[lotis146]

Well thank you Ray! I was super excited to get your message, seems like you know what you're talking about. I appreciate how you explained that it's about the air not the roots, it puts the whole situation in better perspective.

So last night I repotted my mini Phal., my Paph. and removed and potted the keikis. I approached this last part with some apprehension as the keikis were so close to each other and their roots were somewhat interwoven.

I decided the best way to go about it was with a fresh utility knife blade. I sterilized it in alcohol. I wasn't sure just where to cut them apart; I thought maybe to cut the little bit of mother spike right down the middle but that took a little more "work" than my timid, amateur self felt comfortable with given the tight space not provided by the surrounding roots. So I decided on a bit of a cross section of you will, a short quick diagonal slice nearest the keiki with the smallest third leaf and root. This left the smallest sliver of spike on one and the rest of the one inch of spike with the other. This was the fastest and easiest as once I started to cut I could separate it a bit to make the cut easier. Did I mention by the way that the vellum on their roots had started to grow towards the tip signaling what I understand to be the end of their growth cycle?

Then I soaked them in warm water with this plant food I had that encouraged root and bloom growth. I don't have access to the products you've listed but I intend to invest in some in the future, I just didn't want to wait to order them since my plants are in such bad such. The roots had to be a bit curled to fit in the soaking bowl and luckily that sat in their without incident.

After half hour or so I put some planting medium in the bottom of a small ceramic pots with holes in the sides. I twisted/spiraled them as Ray recommended and believe it or not there was no evidence of cracking or breaking (at least as far as I know)! Yeah! I filled the rest of the space in the pot with my medium. The medium I used is actually a combination of three different sources (hope this isn't bad): an Orchid mix of charcoal, lava rock & bark, bark of various sizes from a nursery, and a little bit of sphagnum moss mixed in. I soaked all of it for a while prior to the potting. Then I dumped the quart of water they soaked in over the two of them; the water drained out the holes and I tipped them over to dump any excess water out. Then I put them in the other room that's mostly dark as the window is 90% blocked; some light comes in but not much at all. Is this enough light or is it too dark?

I moved on to the mother plant removing her from her medium and dumping that out completely. I'm thinking a thrifty way to reuse the medium I'm tossing out is to bag it (not sealed) and save to put in the landscaping in the backyard once the weather warms up. It just seems like such a waste to throw it all away, plus I think the various medium will add to the nutrients and aeration of the backyard flower gardening.

As Ray suspected the mother plants root base was pretty bad. All the old roots that used to spiral around the base of the original pot were yellow and mushy. I'll post pictures when I can but it looked like a skeletal cage of roots. I started cutting at the base of the plant removing black, flattened, mushy roots. There were a few that weren't green - very mild hints of green - but had some shape and firmness to them so I left them, cutting the brown tip off of one. I was happy to find that under the mother leaves (which were leaning more to and over one side of the pot that faced the window and was also pulled a bit by the weight of the keikis on the spike) were two fairly decent small roots. They didn't have any new-growth on the tips, they were white, but they were whitish-green with good shape. All in all I cut the dead tips off a few more and I'd say I had at least 7 roots, the longest (only 2 I think) wasn't more than 3-4 inches. She's been sitting out all night. Oh and I also cut the mother stem off completely given her condition because I know that's the right thing to do. I cut it above the second to last node and put cinnamon on the end of it, which I didn't actually remember to do until this morning (oops). One of her basal leaves is yellow with some green yet and very wrinkled but a bit more firm than the limpest young leaves. Should I remove this leaf?

I will repot her in the same pot with the same mixture I used for the keikis, doesn't have quite as much sphagnum moss as them (which wasn't a whole lot). And then put her in the dark room with the others. Again, is a "mostly" dark room a bit too much shade? What exactly to you refer to when you say "shady place"? And I will treat her just as the keikis like you recommended, soaking her and all.

Thanks so much for your advice. I'm hoping this does the trick and that I will soon have some beautiful plants yet again. I am thrilled to be experiencing this process with the keikis and all. It seems there are few other experiences for the amateur (aside from getting a new plant and flowers blooming) that are so amazing. One plant turned into three! I'm praying they do well (literally) and have faith they will. :-D

Of course I'll keep you all posted and share some pics when I can.

Cheers everybody!

Btw I want to add, to whom this may be relevant, somewhere I heard another say that once the leaves have become wrinkled and weak like mine have even if you save the plant they will not return to their unwrinkled state. When this happened the first time to this same plant and I repotted it (not removing the old, original medium from the middle of the root bundle (which may have led to its demise)) into the Orchid mix of charcoal, lava rock and bark into an orchid pot with wholes in the side (still using) it did in fact return to its healthy firm, unwrinkled state. So if anyone believes they don't do this, well I've seen it happen once so far!

[Ray]

Originally Posted by lotis146

Well thank you Ray! I was super excited to get your message, seems like you know what you're talking about.

Hoo-boy, are you WAY off!

Don't forget that an "orchid expert" is one who has killed his or her wight in plants!

---------- Post added at 09:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 AM ----------

You want them shaded, not completely dark (room lighting still qualifies as dark).

Often, shriveled pseudobulbs will not regain their plumpness, but you should definitely see the turgidity regained in the phals. For that older plant, keeping the relative humidity high while it recovers is very helpful. With a poor root system, it has no way to take up water, so it can continue to shrivel. Get a clear plastic bag and invert it over the plant and pot to simulate a greenhouse - it will help slow the desiccation process.

[lotis146]

Ha ha! I don't doubt that; each time I've managed to "save" one of my Orchids I gain a little bit more experience. Besides, if you've never failed than what have you learned?

I'm aware that house lights are not equivalent to natural light. The little bit of light I'm referring to in the room is coming from the edge of the window that isn't covered and they are in the path of this light. I cracked the blinds a bit just now to bring in some more. I also covered the group with a clear plastic bag just now. I'll keep an eye on them. And I say I covered the group because as it turns out all my Orchids have crappy root systems.

Thanks again for your help Mr. Non-expert! ;-)

[lotis146]

UPDATE!

I am so happy to share with you all that mother Phal. is finally showing definitive positive signs: two new roots poking themselves out into the world!

She's remained green but also limp and still slightly wrinkled although much better. Even as the keikis leaves became more rigid (especially the smaller of the two whose leaves are longer now and nearly horizontal) mom's leaves stayed droopy. Needless to say I've been pretty worried. BUT as I said new roots just starting in the last week. I can't see those below the surface but that's fine now that I can see these!

Oh and you read already that the Keikis leaves look good but in addition to this the smaller of the two has a root just barely poking out of one of the very small holes on the back side of the pot (when it comes time to repot next year this will be a problem...). And the other one I've noticed in the last week also has a new root growing up top!

Thank you so much to everyone for your help. I'm sure many of you hear it time and time again that this forum is invaluable but it does more than just save plants. As cheesy as it sounds you help people too because I recognize now that growing Orchids really is a hobby (I'm hooked). There's a certain shall I say...Zen...to growing and caring for Orchids that does a soul good (until of course you can't get enough of them because you discover that there are so many different kinds all over the place be it greenhouses to visit or online vendors to buy from, you want every one you like!)! Even with the new ones I've bought since first asking for your help and the new ones I've got coming now (and the new ones that are going to come home with me one day I make it to Hausermann's...) it brings me the most joy to bring good health to the Orchids that I've had for several years now. To finally know what I'm doing is a bit of a gift really. As I updated my other posts you'll see that the Paph. & mini Phal I sought help for are also showing signs of growth. In addition the Phal. I bought from large box store (turns out to be 'Pink Pirate' dyed purple) is growing a new leaf! One of the rescues from Lowe's made an immediate recovery and is doing REALLY well although the second white one is doing really poorly (sure it will lose at least 2 leaves if it survives at all) one of its leaves while still yellowing a bit is now horizontal as opposed to droopy. Oh and my new Paph Pink Fred, yeah Bloom #2 is about to open!

Thank you so much! I look forward to being able to one day help others and continue to grow my own knowledge.

Lotis
(P.S. I've got a Zygopetalum & Wilsonara on the way...impulse buys...oops...I couldn't help myself!)

[WhiteRabbit]

Good job!

[lotis146]

I am stoked!

One of the keikis from this previous thread (they're not even yet 2 years old) I checked today because I saw some new growth. I thought it was yet another new root, but no, I think it's a spike!!! I've never had any plants grow a spike right in front of me so this is a first but from all the pics I've seen here I'm pretty certain this is a spike.

[WhiteRabbit]

[No-Pro-mwa]

So exiting most defiantly a spike.