Shriveled Pbulbs on Oncid. Type

[Nanuca]

Originally Posted by WhiteRabbit

It looks more shriveled than I would expect just from age and new growth - but it's not horribly bad. If the new growth is coming in well (no pleated 'accordian' leaves), it is probably fine. Honestly, my one Bllra I had, I seemed to have a heck of a time getting the watering right. I think too much water is worse than erring on the side of slightly less.

Just noticed that you mentioned pleated 'accordian' leaves. I have this problem on my Dendrobium nobile, the new leaves are very pleated and seem to slowly recover (become unpleated) as they grow. What is the cause of that? I bought the Den in that condition already, but didn't think it might be a problem. The leaves look green and nice.

My other question reffers to the shriveled pbulbs: if they become shriveled due to lack of water, should they recover if then watering is done properly?

[cbuchman]

Unfortunately, shriveled pbulbs and accordioned leaves rarely, if ever, plumb back up again. It's just the nature of the beast

Wrinkled leaves, in particular area sign of dehydration, However, this can be due to a loss of roots and the ability to take up water rather than too little water. You will need to look at your roots to determine what is needed.

It's always good to examine your orchids regularly so that you can adjust or investigate root cause (pun intended!) at the earliest opportunity

[butterfly_muse]

Originally Posted by cbuchman

Unfortunately, shriveled pbulbs and accordioned leaves rarely, if ever, plumb back up again. It's just the nature of the beast

Wrinkled leaves, in particular area sign of dehydration, However, this can be due to a loss of roots and the ability to take up water rather than too little water. You will need to look at your roots to determine what is needed.

It's always good to examine your orchids regularly so that you can adjust or investigate root cause (pun intended!) at the earliest opportunity

As my own is my first oncidium type and their roots are not the plumb phal roots I'm used to seeing, what would their roots look like if they were to be damaged given that they're tan/brown to start off with..?

[NYCorchidman]

You watered this plant twice in the past 2.5 weeks in this weather. Is your growing area airconditioned all the time? Did you trim off some roots? If not, it is most likely due to underwatering.

Wrinkling of pbs on oncidiums most commonly happen when the plants are underwatered any time of the year, but more common during the hot season and while new growths are present.
Plants with rotten roots can also show the same symptoms because they are unable to take up enough water if at all.

It is definitely not normal at all. If you observe well grown oncidium hybrids or their related group of plants, even the smallest pbs years old often have leaves attached to them and pbs are plump.

Now, will those wrinkles go away? It depends on the type. Some intergenerics will plump up once they are sufficiently hydrated although this will take a few good soaking (at least 10 min or longer each soaking). Some intergenerics will never recover once wrinkled up, however, with proper watering, the subsequent growth will be fine.

Now, here's the trick to prevent the wrinkling in the future when you get oncidium types.

Wait until you see just SLIGHT wrinkles (like slight indentation here and there but not deep) before watering the first time.
Feel the weight of the pot. Soak the plant good and wait until the weight of the pot feels as light as the last time. then water again.
This takes some work but it's the surest way.

With most commonly available hobby orchids, you should not dry out (like bone dry). Even in the professional GH where high humidity is maintained all the time, orchids are well watered.

Imagine typical home environment where relative humidity is much lower and the plants are barely hydrated to survive.
Those wrinkles will show up.

So water well.

For now, do not keep the potting mix too wet as you risk rotting roots. But when you do water, soak the plant good. If the wrinkle do not go away, then your plant is the type that does not "recover".
With proper watering, the future growth will be fine.

For the future shopping:

when you get a chance to see the oncidium intergeneric orchids before buying, avoid the ones with sever wrinkles because that means the plants were not grown properly or their roots are in bad condition or both.

---------- Post added at 11:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 AM ----------

As my own is my first oncidium type and their roots are not the plumb phal roots I'm used to seeing, what would their roots look like if they were to be damaged given that they're tan/brown to start off with..?

You recently repotted this plant, right?
If the roots looked fine, then I would not mess with them taking out of the pot again.

Tan roots are perfectly alive. Many roots of oncidium types may look dead but they are not.
I learned this hard way. I chopped down good portion of those brown (but not dark coffee brown, of course) roots and the plant just suffered so much from dehydration.

Just leave them and water correctly.
That's the best thing to do.

[butterfly_muse]

Originally Posted by NYCorchidman

You watered this plant twice in the past 2.5 weeks in this weather. Is your growing area airconditioned all the time? Did you trim off some roots? If not, it is most likely due to underwatering.

Wrinkling of pbs on oncidiums most commonly happen when the plants are underwatered any time of the year, but more common during the hot season and while new growths are present.
Plants with rotten roots can also show the same symptoms because they are unable to take up enough water if at all.

It is definitely not normal at all. If you observe well grown oncidium hybrids or their related group of plants, even the smallest pbs years old often have leaves attached to them and pbs are plump.

Now, will those wrinkles go away? It depends on the type. Some intergenerics will plump up once they are sufficiently hydrated although this will take a few good soaking (at least 10 min or longer each soaking). Some intergenerics will never recover once wrinkled up, however, with proper watering, the subsequent growth will be fine.

Now, here's the trick to prevent the wrinkling in the future when you get oncidium types.

Wait until you see just SLIGHT wrinkles (like slight indentation here and there but not deep) before watering the first time.
Feel the weight of the pot. Soak the plant good and wait until the weight of the pot feels as light as the last time. then water again.
This takes some work but it's the surest way.

With most commonly available hobby orchids, you should not dry out (like bone dry). Even in the professional GH where high humidity is maintained all the time, orchids are well watered.

Imagine typical home environment where relative humidity is much lower and the plants are barely hydrated to survive.
Those wrinkles will show up.

So water well.

For now, do not keep the potting mix too wet as you risk rotting roots. But when you do water, soak the plant good. If the wrinkle do not go away, then your plant is the type that does not "recover".
With proper watering, the future growth will be fine.

For the future shopping:

when you get a chance to see the oncidium intergeneric orchids before buying, avoid the ones with sever wrinkles because that means the plants were not grown properly or their roots are in bad condition or both.

---------- Post added at 11:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 AM ----------

As my own is my first oncidium type and their roots are not the plumb phal roots I'm used to seeing, what would their roots look like if they were to be damaged given that they're tan/brown to start off with..?

You recently repotted this plant, right?
If the roots looked fine, then I would not mess with them taking out of the pot again.

Tan roots are perfectly alive. Many roots of oncidium types may look dead but they are not.
I learned this hard way. I chopped down good portion of those brown (but not dark coffee brown, of course) roots and the plant just suffered so much from dehydration.

Just leave them and water correctly.
That's the best thing to do.

This plant had very firm, plumb pbulbs when I bought it 2.5 weeks ago. It was potted in sphag until last Saturday, and the sphag was very moist when I got it, I watered it anyway, and then I left it there with a skewer and kept checking it but it stayed moist. The skewer was even moist when I took it out of the pot last weekend, and the sphag I removed was slightly damp. I soaked the roots in some KelpMax, and the CHC had been soaked. I watered it very thoroughly yesterday...but I didn't soak it. Beyond that, I did not water it, and I was afraid to water it while it was in the sphag because it stayed so wet.

Should I soak it just incase when I get home?

Edit: Yes, my house is air conditioned all the time, and no, I did not cut any roots, they were all healthy and pretty looking.

[NYCorchidman]

Originally Posted by Nanuca

Just noticed that you mentioned pleated 'accordian' leaves. I have this problem on my Dendrobium nobile, the new leaves are very pleated and seem to slowly recover (become unpleated) as they grow. What is the cause of that? I bought the Den in that condition already, but didn't think it might be a problem. The leaves look green and nice.

My other question reffers to the shriveled pbulbs: if they become shriveled due to lack of water, should they recover if then watering is done properly?

Dendrobium nobile hybrids are among my favorite plants ever!

They need TONs of water while actively growing.
The pleated leaves you see on them are due to underwatering.
If you corrent the watering, the pleated leaves might recover, but not completely. You will still see somewhat of accordion look on the leaves depending on how sever it was before.

Give lots of water so that they can grow to their full potential. Leaves will grow larger and the cane will thicken with proper watering.

Then cut down on watering once you see the top leaf forming. This does not mean drying them. You still need to water the plant good, just not pouring down on them as you want to don while in growth mode.
Keep those fat cane plump.

---------- Post added at 11:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 AM ----------

Originally Posted by butterfly_muse

This plant had very firm, plumb pbulbs when I bought it 2.5 weeks ago. It was potted in sphag until last Saturday, and the sphag was very moist when I got it, I watered it anyway, and then I left it there with a skewer and kept checking it but it stayed moist. The skewer was even moist when I took it out of the pot last weekend, and the sphag I removed was slightly damp. I soaked the roots in some KelpMax, and the CHC had been soaked. I watered it very thoroughly yesterday...but I didn't soak it. Beyond that, I did not water it, and I was afraid to water it while it was in the sphag because it stayed so wet.

Should I soak it just incase when I get home?

Edit: Yes, my house is air conditioned all the time, and no, I did not cut any roots, they were all healthy and pretty looking.

You might have overwatered it since the plant came with very moist sphag and you watered it when you got the plant. But, since the roots looked fine when you repotted, I don't think roots were affected by overwatering. Let's not even call it overwatering.

It is now in chc. Did you soak chc before using it?
While chc retains moisture well, just like bark chips, chc can do not soak well and stay rather dry for the first couple of months.
So the plant might be suffering underwatering moving from moist sphag to dry chc.
Good watering alone do not recover the wrinkled pbs or sufficiently wet the chc (when new and not presoaked).

Chech the chc when you go home and see how dry or moist the chc is.
If dry, then you want to soak, not just letting the water through the pot. You will waste lots of water that way and still not giving the plant enough water.
Let the entire pot immersed in water for good 10min minimum. Repeat when chc seem not as moist.

Potting mix staying moist is perfect condition for oncidiums and many other orchids. You don't want to bone dry them.
Now wet is completely different thing. You will kill the plant in wet mix very fast.

[butterfly_muse]

Originally Posted by NYCorchidman

Dendrobium nobile hybrids are among my favorite plants ever!

They need TONs of water while actively growing.
The pleated leaves you see on them are due to underwatering.
If you corrent the watering, the pleated leaves might recover, but not completely. You will still see somewhat of accordion look on the leaves depending on how sever it was before.

Give lots of water so that they can grow to their full potential. Leaves will grow larger and the cane will thicken with proper watering.

Then cut down on watering once you see the top leaf forming. This does not mean drying them. You still need to water the plant good, just not pouring down on them as you want to don while in growth mode.
Keep those fat cane plump.

---------- Post added at 11:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 AM ----------



You might have overwatered it since the plant came with very moist sphag and you watered it when you got the plant. But, since the roots looked fine when you repotted, I don't think roots were affected by overwatering. Let's not even call it overwatering.

It is now in chc. Did you soak chc before using it?
While chc retains moisture well, just like bark chips, chc can do not soak well and stay rather dry for the first couple of months.
So the plant might be suffering underwatering moving from moist sphag to dry chc.
Good watering alone do not recover the wrinkled pbs or sufficiently wet the chc (when new and not presoaked).

Chech the chc when you go home and see how dry or moist the chc is.
If dry, then you want to soak, not just letting the water through the pot. You will waste lots of water that way and still not giving the plant enough water.
Let the entire pot immersed in water for good 10min minimum. Repeat when chc seem not as moist.

Potting mix staying moist is perfect condition for oncidiums and many other orchids. You don't want to bone dry them.
Now wet is completely different thing. You will kill the plant in wet mix very fast.

I did soak the CHC overnight, and it came to me triple-washed (but I read to soak it anyway so I did). I have a skewer in there, maybe I just can't rely on that lol. I will check it when I get home. It has cooled off significantly and we have been opening the windows this week, but I know last week was bloody hot. Maybe it just got upset from that and from the new mix. I will make sure to soak it when I water from now on.

[james mickelso]

When you bought this orchid, it was just out of a setting like the pictures here. This is Etowah Nursery. These plants are grown very warm, humid, high light levels, and very breezy (see the very large fans at the back of the GH in the larger pic). This is why even the oldest pbulbs are still plump. The new growth does not have to struggle to get moisture or nourishment. And above all else the air movement is high. Lots of air movement like that found in their normal environments. The older pbulbs are not stressed to give up their stores of starch/sugar and moisture. Then.......... these orchids get to the store or nursery where we buy them and put them in a completely different environment. We proceed to take them out of their pot (root environment) and put them in something different. It's no wonder they become stressed and grow differently. Oncids have fine, thin, easily damaged roots. They come to us accustomed to a certain root environment and go downhill quickly when that environment is changed. Because they have such thin leaves, these start to fold quickly and because the roots have been damaged they can't recover quickly enough to keep the plant hydrated. The plant then channels it's energy and resources from the older pbulbs to the new growth because that is what their function is. Old pbulbs are nothing more than repositories of starch/sugar and moisture for the succeeding generation of growth. Before you came into possession of this plant it was already changing. It is normal and the new growth will be just fine. In the future when you go to repot a plant, do it when the plant is dry. The roots are much more pliable and less damage is done to them. Don't water for a day or two after you repot it. Let it heal itself. When you take it out of the pot, do so gently by laying it on it's side and drawing it out of the pot and if in bark letting the bark or chc fall away. If in moss, use tweezers to gently pull it away from the root mass. Take your time. Start at the bottom middle and work your way up and out. The roots are mostly on the outside and you should concentrate on the inside where the roots are less numerous. Catts and phals are more robust but oncid types have these very fine easily damaged roots so be careful. If you are very careful you may not inflict much damage to the roots and the plant won't become stressed.

[Nanuca]

Thank you NYCorchidman for the advice! I love the Den nobile too! After reading the replies I realised my den was surely underwatered. I mean I constantly watered it, but not sufficiently. So now I'm going to water it as you advised me. Just to see how it looks, I attached a few photos of both leaves and roots.

[NYCorchidman]

Bloody hot, truly so! lol Are you British?

Ok, so you presoaked your chc. That is great.
I think now you can just soak the pot for about 10 minutes each time you water the plant.

If you do not see any improvement of wrinkles after a few soaking in the next couple of weeks, you don't have to worry as that means this plant is one of those that does not recover from the wrinkles.