leaf drop on phal with white fuzz on roots

[allyqat]

Hello everyone! Hope you and your orchids are having a good day Brace yourself for a long post and many needy questions

I bought a phal from a florist back in January and I've recently cut her spike back after blooming, hoping it might grow a new spike. She lives in my room about 6 feet from a partially shaded east window. One day, I noticed that the sphagnum moss she was growing in was turning black on the top and had a bit of a white frosted look to it - I'm not sure if it was a fungal growth or just nutrient deposition from the fertilizer I'd been giving her (MiracleGro water soluble orchid food which I belatedly realized has predominantly urea N and have bought new fertilizer - MSU orchid fertilizer, granular, tap water version). So I panicked and bought new media and locally I had MiracleGro Orchid Potting Mix Coarse Blend which has bark in it so I thought it might help with drainage (I live in Louisiana and thought it might be humid enough here, don't know).

Until her new pot (4" slotted orchid pot from repotme.com) arrived, I put her back into the flimsy plastic container she came in, with some 2 air slots I added on the side. I cut off roots I thought looked dried out and hollow, and dusted with cinnamon. I've been watering her more now, about every 2-4 days based on how long it takes the moisture haze to disappear on the inside of the clear container (used to water weekly in the sphag). She dropped her two lowest leaves (small leaves) and seemed ok. Then her next leaf started yellowing and fell off (pictured below, any idea what the weird circle hole near the base is?), and I'm all but certain she's going to drop two of her big leaves (due to yellowing at the base, pictured), leaving only two leaves. I'm worried I'm hurting her :-/ Should I get her a heating pad? If so, suggestions on what kind (I know nothing beyond their existence, haha)?

Most of her roots were beautiful shades of green when I took her out of the old sphagnum and now some of her roots are shriveled and gray (pictured below), thought seem to regain some vigor and color the day I water, only to return to shriveled in the next few days. Any recommendations to help her adjust to the new type of medium? Should I go back to sphag? A different medium? I've got some marbles I'm thinking of adding to the bottom of her new pot to increase drainage. I'm going to make a humidity tray out of said marbles, as well.

I'm also worried because fuzzy white suspected fungus (pictured below) has shown up on some of her roots that stick out of the top of the potting medium (pot is too short) so I know I need to repot her, but I'm afraid of traumatizing her further :-/ I've read that I can treat the fuzzy mold with hydrogen peroxide which I will do when I repot her into her new pot within the next 2 days. Could I also add vinegar to the new medium, whatever it is, to increase the acidity? From microbiology class, high acidity inhibits fungus growth. Any suggestions on how to combat the fungus? I've heard of sphag and bag, but I'm afraid more mold will form :-S Other suggestions for nursing her back to health?

I'd pull her out of her bark-soil medium to take pictures of her roots, but I don't want to do that right now until I'm going to report her to minimize the stress if at all possible. So I'll post pictures once I figure out what medium she'll be going into. Any other pictures/info you'd like to see/know?

Any advice and/or criticism appreciated! She's my first and only orchid and I want to protect her. Thank you in advance, especially for slogging through this post! Please help

[Onyx]

I also used the Miracle Gro orchid mix on my first orchids when I repotted them and it was far too... soil-y? Would that even be a word? Either way, the lack of air flow and such pretty much nuked the roots, as far as I could tell. I lost one of the two phals that I planted in it and the other is orchid ICU since it had only one root left after I realized what the issue was (leaves bagged, suspended over a container of soaked bark). Not quite sphag & bag but it at least seems to have enough air flow to prevent mold -- it might even be growing a new leaf but it's too soon to tell. Either way, I would recommend not using that mix and instead get something else -- plain bark if possible, which you could then mix with sphag and/or perlite or whatever else people would suggest.

I'm also a newbie, but I'd probably treat the fungus ASAP and then pick some of the potting mix away to look at the roots that are buried and see how much of an emergency it is from there.

I do know plants are often sensitive to pH so adding vinegar might be a bad idea -- I don't know if orchids are, specifically, so someone else can confirm/deny.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Originally Posted by allyqat

Hello everyone! Hope you and your orchids are having a good day

Hi.

Originally Posted by allyqat

I bought a phal from a florist back in January and I've recently cut her spike back after blooming, hoping it might grow a new spike.

It won't necessarily produce a new spike if you remove the old spike. What you have done is allowed the orchid to preserve its energy so that it can focus on producing leaves and roots instead of blooming. That's a good thing, especially for an orchid in your current situation.

Originally Posted by allyqat

She lives in my room about 6 feet from a partially shaded east window.

Might not be bright enough, idk. To really know, you might need a meter or you can do the whole "hand and shadow" method to determine lighting intensity. The "hand and shadow" technique is obviously not as accurate as a meter, but when done right can work just as well.

Originally Posted by allyqat

One day, I noticed that the sphagnum moss she was growing in was turning black on the top and had a bit of a white frosted look to it - I'm not sure if it was a fungal growth or just nutrient deposition from the fertilizer I'd been giving her...

Wihout a pic of the old medium, it's hard to tell exactly what it is, but it's a good assumption to believe the white frost could be from mineral deposits.

The black could be mold, idk. It could also be dried algae, idk.

Originally Posted by allyqat

...([I use] MiracleGro water soluble orchid food which I belatedly realized has predominantly urea N and have bought new fertilizer - MSU orchid fertilizer, granular, tap water version).

I think this is a good move, because now the fertilizer is more usable for other types of orchids too - it's not just good for growing Phals.

Originally Posted by allyqat

So I panicked and bought new media and locally I had MiracleGro Orchid Potting Mix Coarse Blend which has bark in it so I thought it might help with drainage (I live in Louisiana and thought it might be humid enough here, don't know).

Los Angeles is not all that humid, and I've had success growing some Phals in bark. The thing is, I know roundabouts what my humidity levels are here. If you don't know what your humidity levels are, I suggest you find out, (not by using "how it feels", your senses can deceive you because you adapt or "get used to things").

If that MiracleGro Orchid Potting Mix had some fine particles in it, that's no good. That stuff suffocates the roots by preventing enough gas exchange from happening in the root area and retains too much moisture.

Originally Posted by allyqat

Until her new pot (4" slotted orchid pot from repotme.com) arrived, I put her back into the flimsy plastic container she came in, with some 2 air slots I added on the side. I cut off roots I thought looked dried out and hollow, and dusted with cinnamon.

Yeah...

There was a little issue that some of us here on the OB had with dusting orchid roots with cinnamon. Some of us advised against doing that because it desiccated the good healthy roots and eventually kills them.

Cinnamon contains a phytochemical called cinnamaldehyde that acts not only as a desiccant, but also as a growth inhibitor.

Originally Posted by allyqat

I've been watering her more now, about every 2-4 days based on how long it takes the moisture haze to disappear on the inside of the clear container (used to water weekly in the sphag).

Phals, in general, are rather tricky to water with Sphagnum as a potting media for most people, hence why I usually advise against using it.

I think the way you adjusted the watering schedule according to the different media and when they dry out is a perfectly acceptable practice.

Originally Posted by allyqat

She dropped her two lowest leaves (small leaves) and seemed ok. Then her next leaf started yellowing and fell off (pictured below, any idea what the weird circle hole near the base is?), and I'm all but certain she's going to drop two of her big leaves (due to yellowing at the base, pictured), leaving only two leaves. I'm worried I'm hurting her :-/

Phals do drop older leaves (the bottom leaves), and that is normal. I'm assuming this isn't the case with yours though...

It could be because the roots are desiccated and the plant doesn't have the energy to be able to support the leaves.

It could also be that the plant is not getting enough light.

It could've been overwatered. (I kinda doubt it's this one, but it could be...)

I'm leaning towards the first 2 possibilities.

I've posted this before, and I do have visual evidence that supports my claims - a Phal without leaves and a healthy set of roots, is still alive. They can always easily grow new leaves. There is a reason for this...

Originally Posted by allyqat

Should I get her a heating pad? If so, suggestions on what kind (I know nothing beyond their existence, haha)?

I don't use a heating pad, but I also know what the temperature range I have my Phals in are. I suggest you find out what the temperatures of your growing area are.

Originally Posted by allyqat

Most of her roots were beautiful shades of green when I took her out of the old sphagnum and now some of her roots are shriveled and gray (pictured below), thought seem to regain some vigor and color the day I water, only to return to shriveled in the next few days.

I don't know the extent by which you used the cinnamon on the roots was, but it is possible that the cinnamon was the culprit for your Phals roots shriveling so badly. It may not be the actual culprit, but it is a possibility.

Originally Posted by allyqat

Any recommendations to help her adjust to the new type of medium?

Maybe soak it in a shallow bucket of water for a few hours and see what happens.

Originally Posted by allyqat

Should I go back to sphag?

Imo, no, you shouldn't. But again, that's my opinion.

Originally Posted by allyqat

A different medium?

Maybe...

Have you tried either CHC or LECA or Hydroton?

Originally Posted by allyqat

I've got some marbles I'm thinking of adding to the bottom of her new pot to increase drainage. I'm going to make a humidity tray out of said marbles, as well.

Got nothing. Don't know how to advise.

Originally Posted by allyqat

I'm also worried because fuzzy white suspected fungus (pictured below) has shown up on some of her roots that stick out of the top of the potting medium (pot is too short) so I know I need to repot her, but I'm afraid of traumatizing her further :-/

Maybe provide some air circulation via a muffin fan?

Generally speaking, certain fungi like stagnant areas, so maybe a little air circulation could stop it from recurring as often.

Originally Posted by allyqat

I've read that I can treat the fuzzy mold with hydrogen peroxide which I will do when I repot her into her new pot within the next 2 days.

It doesn't always work. There are a few fungi that are persistent, resistant, or hardy. They can sometimes withstand this kind of treatment just fine, depending on the fungus.

Fungal identification goes beyond just seeing that it looks like white fuzz, btw. Real fungi ID takes skills and a good microscope.

Originally Posted by allyqat

Could I also add vinegar to the new medium, whatever it is, to increase the acidity? From microbiology class, high acidity inhibits fungus growth.

High acidity could also kill your orchid's roots.

I suggest not using vinegar to clear the media of fungi as it could have some adverse effects on the roots.

Originally Posted by allyqat

Any suggestions on how to combat the fungus? I've heard of sphag and bag, but I'm afraid more mold will form :-S Other suggestions for nursing her back to health?

Fungicide.

Sphag and bag, more-often-than-not, causes more trouble than good, there are better variations of the "sphag and bag" that doesn't use a bag, but it still runs some risk of mold developing.

You could also get a humidifier. High levels of humidity and warmth usually prompts many Phals to put on some growth.

Originally Posted by allyqat

I'd pull her out of her bark-soil medium to take pictures of her roots, but I don't want to do that right now until I'm going to repot her to minimize the stress if at all possible. So I'll post pictures once I figure out what medium she'll be going into. Any other pictures/info you'd like to see/know?

If you are able to provide a photo of the entire root system, that'd be great.

Originally Posted by allyqat

Any advice and/or criticism appreciated! She's my first and only orchid and I want to protect her. Thank you in advance, especially for slogging through this post! Please help

Have you read the sticky, (http://www.orchidboard.com/community...ends-here.html), from the very beginning? If not, I'd recommend doing so.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Here's another potting media alternative - rice hulls. Someone on the OB used to use rice hulls.

[Cintirella]

I Must be the only person who have used Miracle Grow for Orchids and got the opposite results. 1. it was a plant in full bloom that I re-potted into this mix and flowers still every year. ( to the neighbors envy may I add )- (she lives outside in Fla) GORGEOUS
2. Just last week I re-potted one Orchid plant that I thought had root rot, ( it wasn't )... You know how hard it was for me having to wait 9-10 days w/out giving her water?.. I felt so bad for her. But today I did, and discovered she has new air roots and a new leaf coming in. If anything, I noticed this Medium tends top get dry fast??!! I must be the only person in here that has had this experience? oh one more thing-- my very 1st ever Orchid I lost was too dry ( yes it was potted in Miracle Grow for orchids ) so my conclusion is: if is Bark, I can water generously EVEN SOAK for few mnts. but if is Miracle Grow- then I just water around 5-6 oz. and monitor every few days as the plant says via leaves and roots how she's doing.

[butterfly_muse]

Everything King said, only on the marble issue, I'd advise packing peanuts - the white kind, that is mixed with nothing. Lots of people do that to increase drainage. Personally, I really like the bark/perlite/charcoal mix I bought at Lowes and my orchids like it too. It gets up to ~98 degrees with 80-100% humidity A LOT here during Maryland summers, and so far everyone seems happy. I agree with Onyx, Miracle Gro mix is too soil-y. Given that, it will pack down like other mix and become really impeding to plants. I watched a girl at my office drown and ruin her plant in that stuff. Bad idea.

It looks like your roots are bad, if we could see the whole system that would be great. Cinnamon, as others have said, dries things out and if you sprinkled it on all of your roots, I'm betting that helped.

As far as peroxide, it doesn't always work, as was mentioned - I've got a sphag and bag I am working on that had fungus grow through the cinnamon (after 2 separate dips in peroxide). Needless to say, I lopped that part of the plant off and it's doing better.

For fungicide, it was suggested to me to get Neem Oil (you can buy the concentrate at Lowes and mix it up into whatever container you want). It's an insecticide/fungicide/miticide, and it's completely harmless to animals and people (which is why I needed it, my cats like the window where my plants are). So far my plants are quite happy with it. It smells kind of funny, but everyone is happy. I bought it specifically for bugs I had from other plants in the house, but I'd say since it's a fungicide it wouldn't hurt you to get it.

I'd think your plant was dropping its leaves because it wasn't getting enough water. If you were watering every 2-4 days with the soil-y mix, you could have drowned it (did you stick a skewer down in there? Even if the top layer of the mix was dry the middle could have been wet enough). If you drowned it and it didn't have any viable roots, it wouldn't be able to take in water via those roots, and the leaves would yellow and die. Then again, maybe that's not what happened. =\ The issue with yellowing leaves is that sometimes it's a symptom of overwatering, sometimes it's a symptom of underwatering, lol. Get a bamboo skewer and keep it in your media. Only water when it's completely dry.

If you want to fix its roots, I'd recommend giving it a good dunk in some KLN, leaves and all. You can also water plants with weak root systems by submerging them, foliage and all. I have to do that with one phal I'm nursing back to health about once a week. It hasn't died yet, so I assume it's doing okay, lol.

[quiltergal]

Originally Posted by allyqat

So I panicked and bought new media and locally I had MiracleGro Orchid Potting Mix Coarse Blend which has bark in it so I thought it might help with drainage (I live in Louisiana and thought it might be humid enough here, don't know).

FYI there are now two types of Miracle Grow potting media. The regular yucky stuff everyone hates and a new coarse blend which seems to be much better for non-terrestrials. I've never used it but many here have had good results with it.

It appears to me that your plant is severely dehydrated. That could be because of the cinnamon dusted roots or you just are not watering often enough for a bark mixture. It does not retain water very well when it is new. As the bark ages it begins to decompose into smaller particles, and you will need to back off on the watering because now it is holding more water than you want.

[allyqat]

First off, thank you so much to everyone who has commented and offered advice. It means the world to me!

She lost one of her big leaves yesterday and a second one this morning. Below is a picture of the underside of said dropped leaf - is the reddish coloration near the base a cause for concern? One of her remaining two leaves also has this red coloration pattern (pictured below) and I imagine she'll lose that leaf, too

This morning I submerged her plastic container in water for about an hour. She's draining now. I will go to Lowe's today or tomorrow for the bark/perlite/charcoal mix, a humidity/temperature meter, white packing peanuts, and neem oil. I will try the KLN if I can't get her back to beautiful roots with the new media and culture conditions.

Onyx -
There is definitely soil in the MiracleGro mix she's in right now. Soil mostly, with bark chips and what I think is perlite. Definitely soil-y

Originally Posted by Onyx

(leaves bagged, suspended over a container of soaked bark). Not quite sphag & bag but it at least seems to have enough air flow to prevent mold

So you basically secure a little plastic baggy around each leaf, maybe with like a gentle rubber band? And are the roots in the soaked bark in this situation?

I will definitely treat the fungus and repot her very soon. Pictures of her exposed roots will ensue.

King_of_orchid_growing -
Should I cut back the spike further, like to the base? It's turning brown, though isn't dried out yet. Where I dipped the tip of the cut spike in cinnamon is a greenish color.

I am unfamiliar with the hand and shadow method - a quick forum search brought up mention of placing a hand in front of the orchid when the sun is shining on it - what do I look for after that?

I was dipping the end of the roots I cut in cinnamon to help close off the wounds. It sounds like I shouldn't be using cinnamon for this - should I maybe use the neem oil instead? A different material to close off wounds?

After her dunk today, Isis's roots seem to have perked up (pictures below). I've got some photos of her roots through her container before I displace her soon.

I have not tried CHC or LECA or Hydroton. Any good brands people recommend? I am definitely willing to invest if it will help her. I figured the fastest thing I could get for her to get her out of the soil would be something locally available. I don't mind watering everyday or more or less, whatever makes Isis happy

I'll get her a little fan if you guys think she needs it. I've always got my overhead ceiling fan on low - my other plants (scheflerra, pothos) sway a little from the air movement so I assumed Isis was getting enough circulation. They don't all sit together, though they may soon as I am in the process of moving them all around.

I will probably end up running a humidifier in my room to help her out. More root pictures to come! I'm in the process of reading 'The phal abuse ends here' - great stuff!

Cintirella -
I usually water Isis by taking her to the sink and pouring water over her so all the soil is soaked, then letting her drain before returning her to her spot on the table. Too much water for this medium? I use tap water that has been left sitting out at least overnight in a half gallon milk jug (no top) - I read that if you leave water out in the open the chlorine will evaporate out.

I can imagine that roots dry out (shrivel) and possibly discolor when they need water - how else do roots and leaves let you know your orchid needs water?

butterfly_muse -
When I get the packing peanuts, do I put a layer on the bottom of the pot, then a layer of the bark/perlite/charcoal mix (is there a particularly good brand/kind of this?), then lay in the roots and carefully add more medium? Should I put peanuts in the center space that often doesn't dry out enough?

How does one apply neem oil? Like, with a spray bottle, or a wash rag? Do I apply it to the entire root system? Leaves? Gosh I'm full of questions XD I'm not sure if there are other posts with this specific information, I haven't read through too many yet, so I apologize for asking potentially answered questions.

I do have cheap wooden chopsticks (pictured below) I put in my media to check moisture content. I'm not sure if they're actually bamboo. Seems to work. I'd pull it out of the MiracleGro stuff and it would be bone dry

Hehe, I'll definitely submerge the whole plant in water if her roots don't seem to be getting any better in the new bark/perlite/charcoal mix medium. I'll use the KLN as a last resort, especially since I'll probably have to order it online anyway.

quiltergal -
Yeah, I bought the course blend because I thought it would be mostly bark but it doesn't seem to be... :-/ Thanks for the clarification.

Again, thank you ALL tremendously. I'm sure with all your concern and consideration we'll get Isis back into her healthy graceful form

[butterfly_muse]

Originally Posted by allyqat

butterfly_muse -
When I get the packing peanuts, do I put a layer on the bottom of the pot, then a layer of the bark/perlite/charcoal mix (is there a particularly good brand/kind of this?), then lay in the roots and carefully add more medium? Should I put peanuts in the center space that often doesn't dry out enough?

How does one apply neem oil? Like, with a spray bottle, or a wash rag? Do I apply it to the entire root system? Leaves? Gosh I'm full of questions XD I'm not sure if there are other posts with this specific information, I haven't read through too many yet, so I apologize for asking potentially answered questions.

I do have cheap wooden chopsticks (pictured below) I put in my media to check moisture content. I'm not sure if they're actually bamboo. Seems to work. I'd pull it out of the MiracleGro stuff and it would be bone dry

Hehe, I'll definitely submerge the whole plant in water if her roots don't seem to be getting any better in the new bark/perlite/charcoal mix medium. I'll use the KLN as a last resort, especially since I'll probably have to order it online anyway.

I have personally never used packing peanuts because I have bark/perlite/charcoal mix and the bark is pretty large, so I don't have to worry about drainage really. However, when I brought my first orchid home, this is the very first video I ever watched:

Phalaenopsis Repotting - Orchid Care - YouTube

It will teach you how to do it, and repotme.com is pretty reputable. That said, she uses moss, and I don't care for it. It's extremely humid here in Maryland, even in a/c houses, and mold is just one of those things that thrives here. Anything that holds onto moisture is a no-no in my house. :P Also, there are videos on YT that you can watch in which people repot in bark, and that should help you. The standard potting mix I've got for my guys is BetterGro Special Orchid Mix, I bought it at Lowes, and my guys love it. I keep the bamboo skewers in there, check them every day, and only water when completely dry, which is ~7-10 days or so. I also fertilize weakly when I do so (a weak fertilizer, water soluble). Also, if you're going to repot in bark, pre-soak it for a day or overnight to open up the pores. New bark doesn't hold onto moisture well, so you'll notice you have to water more often for a little while.

Make sure after you do submerge the plant to keep an eye on the crown, don't let water sit in there. I dunk my guys in the morning and they're about 3 feet under an air vent so there's a lot of circulation and they dry out quickly. If you don't have as much air movement, stagnant water could rot the crown, so dab it out with a q-tip or a paper towel.

As far as the neem oil, I bought Garden Safe® Brand Neem Oil Extract Concentrate | Garden Safe at Lowes - it's a concentrate, and you bring it home and mix it up in water. It smells a little funny, but I just mixed it up in a standard spray bottle and sprayed it on everyone's leaves, undersides, uppersides (I am having a problem with bugs from standard potting soil in some other plants in the house). I have actually noticed there has only been one bug in the last few days since I did that, as opposed to the 12 bugs per day we were getting, so I'd say that it's working. If you're worried about there being fungus on the roots, I don't see why you couldn't mix the concentrate up with water and let your guys' roots soak for a little bit. I wouldn't, however, dunk the whole plant, media and all in it. I don't know if it would hurt it, just that Idk about residue being left in the media. If you're going to repot it, do it then. And you definitely need to repot. That soil will strangle your plant, which I believe is what's happening. It looks way too wet.

As for KLN, I got mine for pretty cheap on Amazon, and you can get a small bottle of it because it doesn't require a lot (like 1-3 teaspoons per gallon or something) so it lasts a long time. That said, I'm told it can expire or weaken over time, I think a year? Someone should double check me on that.

[SJF]

I see roots that appear to be dead. I would take it out of the pot, trim them off, rinse to remove any possible cinnamon residue on the roots and repot it. You can water it with kelp or kln. I wouldn't water it until you have seen the roots go from green to silver or white. The green phal roots mean that it has enough moisture

I have been successful growing in the Miracle Gro (mud mix) with phals. I posted a picture of one of my phals planted in it blooming. It isn't soil. It is a peat mix. There is a grower in Pennington, NJ that has great success growing her phals in a "mud mix" and wins lots of awards. You can't be a heavy handed waterer with it though. Hth