V I R U S !!!!!! Run for your lives..........

[james mickelso]

Well said and through my reading spot on. The focus of the thread was to educate the newbies as to what a virused plant may look like (or flowers anyway) and to know that there are virused plats out there. To be careful but depending on the size of the collection (and it's value to them) it doesn't mean that they have to throw away their collection because of it.

[goodgollymissmolly]

"..and no need to treat me like an ignorant little child"

I didn't treat you like anything. I corrected your misstatements. That is not personal. It's factual.

Virtually every virus expert rates insects as a minor cause of virus transmission. Thrip and aphids are frequently singled out as dangerous. Grasshoppers, because of their large chewing surfaces are known to be especially dangerous.

"I was also speaking about indoor orchid growing.."

You left that part out. Mine are virtually bug free in a greenhouse, but you (or me) is not bug free.

"I check each plant over carefully at watering time"

Try doing that with over 2000 plants or even 150. You would never get them watered.

"Also the risk of spreading virus just by handling plants is low, unless you get infected sap on your hands, and then handle damaged leaves/roots of another plant."

Actually that is probably the biggest risk assuming you practice a strict tool sterilizing routine. You just cannot sterilize your hands between plants. You get a lot of sap on them and you show me a plant that has no physical injury that could be touched...there ain't one.

"For that reason splashing water also won't infect intact plants."

No plant is completely intact. Splashing water that washed off sap and touched other plants is a serious risk. Even if a virus was only transmitted a small fraction of the time it could over time infect many plants.

"..other than spending a fortune testing the plants, those test strips are freakin expensive over here)"

They are freakin' expensive everywhere! Just depends on your seriousness. I don't care if you infect everything you own, but don't use your position to suggest that others need not worry. Maybe they want the best plants that can be grown. Maybe they don't want to collect a lot of plants and find out later they need to start over. I'm not trying tell you what to do with your orchids. I am trying to counteract your advice which is wrong for any serious orchid collector!

"Personally I think that unless people are growing rare and/or very valuable orchids, we need to chill out a bit about viruses and accept that it's a part of owning plants"

Only if you allow it to be

"Or you can continue to stress out about it and forget to enjoy the orchids, which is why we have them."

I don't stress out about it. I test them. You only stress out when you do nothing and then worry about it. Active execution is not stress, passive execution is the fuel of stressed out people. They don't do crap except worry. That isn't limited to orchids either.

Eradication in mass production greenhouses is only impossible because the producers don't care. If they tested plants before mericloning them they wouldn't produce millions of viruses plants. The Dutch killed off their tulip trade before mericloning even existed. Why? Because they produced virused plants and even highlighted their virus symptoms as new patterns. Why did they do that ...for money..but it was short term money. Now they are doing the exact same thing with Hostas.

Last paragraph from the article I cited above:

"Although it is impossible to remove virus from an infected orchid, it is possible to build a virus free collection both at home and in a commercial setting."

That's from expert plant pathologists, not from me. You just have to give a damn.

[WhiteRabbit]

Always a topic to spark heated conversation - let's all remember to be respectful and friendly even when we have differing opinions.

[camille1585]

I'm sorry, but there are much more polite ways to disagree with someone other than belittling them. "I'm sorry, but I disagree with you, and here are my reasons" is a good way to start. Leave the person out of your argumentation.

Originally Posted by goodgollymissmolly

Virtually every virus expert rates insects as a minor cause of virus transmission. Thrip and aphids are frequently singled out as dangerous. Grasshoppers, because of their large chewing surfaces are known to be especially dangerous.

What experts? Please cite them. Your statement contradicts everything there is in literature. Insects are THE most important means of virus transmission, followed by mechanical transmission. I'm not talking about just orchid viruses, but plant viruses in general. I have experts working down the hall from me, I can gladly go get confirmation over there.
The generalist aphid Myzus persicae alone is known to transmit over 60 different viruses.

Originally Posted by goodgollymissmolly

Actually that is probably the biggest risk assuming you practice a strict tool sterilizing routine. You just cannot sterilize your hands between plants. You get a lot of sap on them and you show me a plant that has no physical injury that could be touched...there ain't one.

I was talking about day to day handling of plants, not division. Of course when dividing plant appropriate precautions need to be taken.

Originally Posted by goodgollymissmolly

They are freakin' expensive everywhere! Just depends on your seriousness. I don't care if you infect everything you own, but don't use your position to suggest that others need not worry. Maybe they want the best plants that can be grown. Maybe they don't want to collect a lot of plants and find out later they need to start over. I'm not trying tell you what to do with your orchids. I am trying to counteract your advice which is wrong for any serious orchid collector!

No need to get agressive like that. I AM serious about my orchids, and you are in absolutely no position to judge me on this, but it doesn't mean that I'm going to spend a fortune on test strips, not if I want to pay rent, pay the bills, eat...

I could respond to everything else, but I don't want to further pollute this thread, which was only intending to show us what symptoms looks like. Sorry James.

oh, and FYI, during the tulipmania the dutch didn't even know that the flaring was caused by virus. It's not that they didn't care, they just didn't know.

[james mickelso]

No problem. Been here before. Just opinions. Most of those here have small collections that we enjoy in our spare time. I am lucky in that with over 350 orchids to play with, none are so rare or costly that I would be devastated if all perished. Most of us have small 2,4,10 plants and just enjoy them. In the world around us, orchids take millionth place as things we should worry about. With a huge collection and untold thousands of dollars invested, that becomes a different story. But none the less, civility should be in our hearts and not criticism on our tongues.

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by goodgollymissmolly

There is an excellent article in the current edition of Phalaenopsis magazine, the Journal of IPA. It is by Erin Wood, graduate Research Assisstant and JE Polston Professor, Dept of Plant Pathology, University of Florida,Gainesville, FL. Every one of you should find a way to get a copy. It's simple, down to earth, and in complete disagreement with most of the statements made here on this thread.

Another surprising bit of information in that article is their contention that some viruses don't systematically spread throughout the plant, but can be eliminated by cutting off the afflicted leaves. Unfortunately CymMV and ORSVC do spread through the plant. TSWV and INSV, they say, don't spread through the plant, but may appear as ring shaped spots like the more common CymMV or ORSVC infections.

[zxyqu]

I'm going to try not to wade too deep in this festering pool, but I do believe it's appropriate to try and calm the waters and to give a somewhat neutral opinion.
I have virused plants. I'm aware of them, and they have their own special corner. I love Phal Red Spotted Elephant. It's just such a great flower, and there are very few of them around. I'm proud to have it, but I know it's virused. There is no getting around it. So the idea of building a great virus free orchid collection is totally possible. ***But, you may not be able to get all the plants you want. It's a sacrifice you'll have to make for yourself on a personal growing level.
Now, I'm a virologist by trade, so I understand both sides of this argument. There are some really gnarly virsus that attack plants, and they have been mentioned and shown above. But there are other viruses that are dormant, or minimal detracts from the plant provided there is good culture. Obviously the prior is a "pitchable" offense. You just dont want that kind of flower... Noone would. But the latter one is, as I mentioned, a personal choice.
So, as a Phal grower, I'm aware of virused plants. That's why I'd recommend anyone breeding being aware of virus status (as pollen can transfer), only using virused plants as pod parents, and sowing dry seed only without scraping the pod (should remove most chance of virus within the seedling population).
As a side no, be civil and constructive. We're a friendly bunch, and I miss the friendly banter.

[WhiteRabbit]

Thank you to all calling for, and being civil. One thing I love about this board is the friendly feel. Let's all keep it that way.

Moderators are aware of some heated posts here, and we are paying attention. I think we are all reluctant to lock the thread, or give infractions, but it will be done if deemed necessary.

Thanks again to everyone trying to keep things friendly even if disagreeing

[Rowangreen]

Thanks for putting it in proportion and clearing the water a bit! I guess I'd agree: I'm not too bothered that some of my plants might have hidden viruses. If they do, and a cheap newbie was to die of it, maybe I'd think 'well, that's natural selection...'. On the other hand if I had really valuable plants I might be testing those they had contact with. Same if I was going to be breeding and selling orchids.

Just wanted to say that when I made the comment about 'lets have a heated debate' I was using a catch phrase in an old TV program. I definitely meant a fun (if indepth) debate. Sorry for my part in it getting a little too heated!

[goodgollymissmolly]

Here is a single reference from the third page of a Google search for "orchid viruses". Anybody can do the same search.

http://www.aosforum.org/pdf/Batchelor_17.pdf

I put this one here because it is indicative of all the other articles. All of them blame human interactions as the spread vector. Some mention thrip and aphids as possible vectors (which I said in my post). Some also mention mites but not many. Several articles also coroborate the fact that at least CymMV and ORSV (our largest concerns) do not occur in the wild orchid population.

Bugs are responsible for many viral diseases in agriculture, but these are not the viruses we have in orchids.

Just to be clear...there are at least 90 articles on the first three pages of a Google search that overwhelmingly confirm what I said in my posts. I think the Bachelor article I cited sums it up pretty well if you don't want to read 90 articles.

So my references are cited. Thank you very much for your attention. I rest my case your honor.