Nectar? And other Phal questions - Page 2 - Orchid Board

wuness · #11 12-17-2011, 01:50 PM

I agree with all those who say nectar outside the flower is normal. tucker85 hit the nail on the head. Nectar sources on various parts of the plant near the flower do attract ants and that's the function. johnblagg also had it right. In nature many plants use nectar to attract ants. Peony buds, for example, also use nectar for the same purpose.

Everyone knows what a powerful force a colony of ants can be. By attracting ants to the nectar, wild orchids use them to protect the flower from other organisms (primarily insects) that would eat or otherwise damage the flower. It's an example of quid pro quo. Possible culprits would include beetles, thrips and a host of other herbivorous insects.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily a sign of a "happy" orchid so much as orchids doing their thing. In my view, it's a genetic vestige from the "wild" past of your domestic orchids. Few people realize how important ants are in nature. The evolutionary relationships between ants and plants, particulary in the tropics, is fascinating.

wuness

cythaenopsis · #12 12-19-2011, 10:16 AM

^ Very interesting, and thanks for this wuness. I hadn't seen this nectar/sap on any orchids before, even on this one in previous blooming. Plus, it came out of bud sockets where the buds shriveled up and fell off. So, this didn't sound like a good or happy condition to me. I wonder if it's in reaction to something going on, like fungus gnat infestation? I had a rather prominent gnat problem and eventually cleared it out almost completely. I still get the occasional gnat around, but nothing like before. So, perhaps the plant is trying to attract ants to help fight off pests? In any case, there are no other sap-sites on the plant other than the first two I noted. I'm hopeful it'll have a good healthy blooming cycle.

Incidentally, the small "sister" phal that originally came with it and was eventually detached from the main plant ended up nearly dying. I did the "sphag & bag" technique that sort of worked, but then almost killed it because of insufficient air... it's holding on, despite having only one leaf left. A new leaf is now starting to poke out, so it just may end up surviving. I'll try to take some photos of it.

silken · #13 12-19-2011, 12:13 PM

I don't have fungus gnats or any other pest at this time on my plants and I have honey dew drops on certain ones. My cymbidiums particularly have it where the bud meets the stem. They are clean and healthy looking and the flowers now open and lasting a long time. I think it's coincidence that those two had the honey dew or a secondary result of the problem, not the cause.

wuness · #14 12-19-2011, 02:10 PM

I don't see any connection between the nectar drops near the flowers and fungus gnats. As you probably know, adult fungus gnats have a short life span and do not bite or feed. The orchid has no need to protect itself from adult fungus gnats.

Fungus gnat larvae, however, live in the moist medium and have been known to feed on plant roots, and leaves lying on the surface of the soil, even though this is not their primary food source. Obviously ants cannot protect the orchid from fungus gnat larvae living below the surface.

Perhaps the reason for the nectar drops is simply that the abscission zone at the base of the blasted flower buds was not completely formed, causing some of the sap to ooze out prior to the buds dropping off.

As to why the buds blasted, that's another story.

wuness

Rowangreen · #15 12-19-2011, 02:32 PM

I've just bought a Bratonia Toscane with three spikes. I don't see nectar on the oldest one (flowers just begining to open) and the youngest has just a little since I watered it this morning. The middle one (buds starting to grow away from the spike) is fairly sticky. I'm quite sure the plant is healthy (there's pictures on the Orchids for Christmas thread if you want a look), but one bud on the middle spike was damaged in transit.

Looking at mine I might say it was to do with the age of the spike (vital point in formation!), or maybe a response to damage. Or maybe it just indicates strong sap flow, which would fit with the smaller spike having some, especially after watering. I certainly hope those buds aren't going to blast!

I do have fungus knats (grrr), but definitely not influencing this plant!

NYCorchidman · #16 12-19-2011, 11:04 PM

Adding to what's been already said, as long as you don't find any insect attack on your plants, sap formation is perfectly natural. Pretty much all the orchids I have(catt, den, phal, onc) except for paphiopedilums, produce sap anywhere along the flower spike or on flower buds or flowers.

My Susan Fender Cinnamon Stick, Onc. sharry baby and one of my NOID fragrant dendrobiums produce so much sap to a point they slowly travel down the bud or spike.
I would swipe it with my finger and lick it off.

So yummy!

I agree with Merlyn. I also taste them all. Most of them are sweet and some are sweeter than others. I find the more fragrant the flowers are, the sweeter the sap tastes.

I have a few phals that are spiking now. I found one phal making tiny little sap on two of the developing buds. One of my phals would also produce sap at the tip of the leaves in the summer. not so sweet. lol

Regarding blast, I've only seen it happen to phals and oncidiums. There are multiple causes as to why it happens.
Most common causes are sudden change or fluctuation of temperature, low humidity, cold or warm draft from AC or heater, underwatering while buds are developing, virus weakening the plants and so forth. I'm not sure about the plant biology behind saving nutrients by blasting their buds, but personally I don't believe this is true.
Plants will make certain number of flowers depending on their genetic makeup and the environmental factors.
Once flower buds are made, blasting happens due to unfavorable conditions or virus.

Check your growing area to see if the air is too dry, or if there's a cold draft through window crack, warm air from heater hitting orchids, or if you are not watering enough. Phals need to stay moist at all times but while spiking, they need more water like other orchids.
Also make sure you do not change the location around too much as different parts in the house can have different temperature thus stressing the plants. It's best to leave plants at one location.

Another note, I noticed my oncidium didn't blast a bud during summer months when it was warmer and more humid, while the blooms this month lost quite a few buds.

The only time I've seen phals lose buds were when I buy them in the winter months, which is most likely the temperature change and lower humidity in my home.

cythaenopsis · #17 12-20-2011, 08:09 PM

Ah.... well, I think I under-watering the plant may have been the culprit. I was getting a bit paranoid of over-watering, because in the past this caused root rot. I haven't yet graduated from sphagnum moss, which I should have swapped out for bark after the last blooming. I can't do it now, as the plant is gearing up for the blooming cycle, but you can be sure I'll be switching to bark once it's over. Wish me

NYCorchidman · #18 12-20-2011, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cythaenopsis

Ah.... well, I think I under-watering the plant may have been the culprit. I was getting a bit paranoid of over-watering, because in the past this caused root rot. I haven't yet graduated from sphagnum moss, which I should have swapped out for bark after the last blooming. I can't do it now, as the plant is gearing up for the blooming cycle, but you can be sure I'll be switching to bark once it's over. Wish me

I grow most of my phals in bark chunk mixed with charcoal chips and perlite. This works best for me as I like to water and mist my plants often. You do have to watch though as bark gets older ( I think bark should last two years with out problem except for more humid area like Florida) it does tend to contain moist too much and this can invite root rot. but so far, I've never had any root rot issues. I repot about every two year or so.
I don't like to mess the roots unless I really have to.

The ones in sphagnum moss, you should definitely water less often. As long as moss is fresh and not soggy all the time, phals grow great in moss. I believe moss naturally is slightly acidic which depresses the growth of microorganisms. Dipping the whole pot in physan 20 dilution once a month help ensure root rots are in check.

If you plan to swich from moss to bark for (phals at least), you have to make sure plants are staying adequately moist as the roots dry out much faster in bark mix. The transition the other way around of course is not a problem. What media you choose for your plant is up to you. You just have to control the frequency of watering accordingly.

cythaenopsis · #19 12-28-2011, 05:01 PM

Thanks for the tips. Yeah, I think with younger Phals it's probably easier to keep them in moss. I have one very small Phal that nearly died but is still clinging onto life. I've got it in a small pot with moss, and even that dries out rather quickly.

Btw, that sap turned out to be a bad sign on my phal. Not only did a couple of buds blast from where the sap was coming from, that spike branch is now discoloring the way it would after blooming. The plant is definitely backing off on the resource load. I just hope it's not a sign of it having more issues.... fungus gnats have unfortunately returned, but in very low numbers. I resumed a diluted peppermint oil treatment to control them, plus I'm getting good at killing them once scared out of the moss.

NYCorchidman · #20 12-29-2011, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cythaenopsis

Thanks for the tips. Yeah, I think with younger Phals it's probably easier to keep them in moss. I have one very small Phal that nearly died but is still clinging onto life. I've got it in a small pot with moss, and even that dries out rather quickly.

Btw, that sap turned out to be a bad sign on my phal. Not only did a couple of buds blast from where the sap was coming from, that spike branch is now discoloring the way it would after blooming. The plant is definitely backing off on the resource load. I just hope it's not a sign of it having more issues.... fungus gnats have unfortunately returned, but in very low numbers. I resumed a diluted peppermint oil treatment to control them, plus I'm getting good at killing them once scared out of the moss.

Yes, the smaller the pot size, the faster things dry up. I'm not good with the little phals and usually end up tossing. lol

The sap formation is normal and I believe it is most likely a coincidence that you have sap and bud blasting at the same time. Check to see if there are anything that might cause blasting. cold/heat draft, temperature fluctuation, moving the plant around too often, ripening fruits nearby, too much sun hitting the buds...

One of the phals that are spiking in my apartment now has a few sap on the buds, but the buds are getting bigger and bigger everyday.

Once flower spikes are produced, the plant will normally do all it can to make flowers. For example, even if spikes accidently breaks off, the other node will wake up and grow out to make buds. It is most likely something in the environment that are unfavorable to the plant.