Correct name of a primary hybrid

[Val]

I know that a primary hybrid ocurring in nature gets an "x" in front of its name, and the name is to be written lowercase (same as a species name) - e.g. Phal. x veitchiana.

But what if that same hybrid is man made? Does the plant stil qualify for that kind of name? Or should it have its name written like any man made hybrid - e.g. Phal. Veitchiana?

[FairyInTheFlowers]

Ok, for some reason my brain is refusing to put this out in simple terms. Ok, so here is an example: In nature, when Phalaenopsis sumatrana is pollinated with pollen from Phal. violacea, or vice versa, you get Phalaenopsis x gersenii. In order for a person to own in cultivation a plant under the name Phal. x gersenii, it must either be a wild collected plant, or from seeds on a wild x gersenii. A person cannot take a sumatrana and cross it with a violacea and call it a x gersenii, as this would instead be called Phal. Sulaceous. You can't even take a wild collected Phal. sumatrana, and pollinate it with a wild collected violacea and then call it a x gersenii, for this would be an artificial hybrid, as it was pollinated by a human. So, now that I have explained it fully, I can put it in simple terms: It must be from the wild for it to be properly called a natural hybrid. Anything pollinated by man (other than self pollinating a cultivated x gersenii, which the seedlings would still be x gersenii), would be an artificial hybrid, and therefore have a grex name.

[Val]

Thank you, Cody.

And such a grex name would always be different from the name of the natural hybrid? (In your example, "Sulaceous" versus "x gersenii".)

The reason I'm asking is because I have a plant with the tag "veitchiana x equestris" and I wanted to know if veitchiana is neccessarily a natural hybrid (or a selfing of one).

Later edit:
RHS lists both "veitchiana" (as equestris x schilleriana) and "Veitchiana" (same parents, registered by Heath in 1896). I'm a bit puzzled here...

[PaphMadMan]

In some cases the natural hybrid and the man-made hybrid do share the same name, Phal x veitchiana and Phal Veitchiana. In some cases they do not, Phal x gersenii and Phal Sulcaceous. It can depend on whether the natural hybrid is known first, or the choice of the person who registers the man-made hybrid. In either case only wild collected plants (and their descendants) get the x lowercase form and only man-made hybrids get the Uppercase form.

Where they do have the same spelling, if someone uses lowercase without the x in listing a cross there really is no way to know whether it should be Uppercase or x lowercase, unless they can tell you themselves (if they know, if they care).

[RJSquirrel]

my head hurts now

[Val]

Makes sense.
Thanks!

[RJSquirrel]

does ones learning curve flat line before they do?

[RosieC]

However, wouldn't "veitchiana x equestris" be veitchianna (either the man-made or wild version) crossed back with equestris?

Surely this is...
(equestris x schilleriana) x equestris.

Usually an x between two names indicates they have been crossed rather than a natural hybrid (just as I have written them in fact).

Veitchiana x equestris is not a registered hybrid so would be listed that way rather than as a grex name.

Having said all that I agree with everything that has been said about how wild/cultivated hybrid naming works... I just think this looks more like a back cross of Veitchiana (or x veitchiana) to equestris which is something different again.

[RosieC]

I should add that the reason for the difference between a wild and a man made hybrid is that you can't tell how many times a wild hybrid has been back crossed with it's parent.

So if in the wild Phal x veitchiana is crossed with Phal equestris it is still Phal x veitchiana.

So some wild hybrids might be closer genetically to one parent than the other because more of that one parent has gone into it through successive hybrids. Another hybrid could be closer to the other parent and another could be somewhere in the middle.

As soon as a wild hybrid is back crossed to one of the parents in cultivation it takes on a different name though, just as would happen with all cultivated hybrids. In cultivation Veitchiana crossed with equestris is NOT still Veitchiana, and so in the same way Phal x veitchiana crossed with equestris in cultivation is not still Phal x veitchiana.

Have I confused everyone even more yet

[Val]

Originally Posted by RosieC

Veitchiana x equestris is not a registered hybrid so would be listed that way rather than as a grex name.

RHS lists it as Patricia Lillian, registered by Bettencourt in 1998.
The seed parent is Veitchiana (i.e. the man made cross).