Dendrobium Leaves Turning Yellow & Falling Off

[scy]

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

Your particular Dendrobium shouldn't be losing all the leaves like yours has been doing. It should only shed the lower leaves until the cane is completely bare over a period of maybe a couple years or more.

I think the leaf loss is related to the poor health of the roots.

The pot you have the Dendrobium in may still be too large.

Have you considered possibly trying another Dendrobium should this plant decline further over the course of the next few months?

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but my opinion of this plant is that it may most likely be doomed.

I think if the dendrobium dies, then I will probably not get another as this one was a gift. I'd hate to watch another plant die in my hands.

I called the store where it came from and the person there seemed to think it was going through it's dormant phase and this was "normal." From what I've read, the leaves just don't seem to drop all in a matter of days to weeks. What are the chances that it is going through a dormant phase and will be ok?

If it is dying, wouldn't the flowers have dropped? Should I examine the roots and post some photos? Or is it simply not worth it at this point, since I already looked at the roots a month ago when I repotted? I don't want to cause anymore stress to the plant and want to ensure it's survival. Will cutting the stem dramatically increase the odds of it's survival? If so, where would I need to cut?

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

This particular hybrid does not become fully deciduous.

It may need a significantly drier winter, but it doesn't drop all the leaves in rapid succession like how you're describing.

Just because the plant is dying does not necessarily mean the flowers will drop. It can be a last ditch stress response to bail itself out (not saying that that's what happened with your plant, because it's most likely not). The point being that flowers are a poor indicator of an orchid's overall health.

Most beginners erroneously believe that flowers on an orchid is a great indicator of an orchid's health.

That's not 100% true.

It's only a partial indicator, and a relatively insignificant indicator of the plant's overall health compared to a strong healthy root system, for example.

Flowers are a plant's genitalia.

As an analogy...

It'd be silly if your doctor only looked at your genitalia during a check up and say you're 100% in great overall health.



In the meantime...

I can recommend much easier Dendrobiums to grow if you like.

[scy]

Originally Posted by BobInBonita

Your orchid looks VERY sick. I agree with the King that its likelihood of survival are low, but wanted to ask a few questions that MIGHT help you understand what happened so your next orchid fares better. It might also point more towards possible survival. The questions come from just a few of the errors I have made, so don't feel bad if you did something - learn from your mistakes. I'm still learning (too frequently sometimes). If you didn't do anything wrong, the plant was probably terminal when you got it - but even that is a learning lesson - check the roots, not just the flowers, before you buy.

It looks like a time sequence, with the first pic a healthier plant, then progressively worse. How long apart were these pictures taken? Was it a sudden decline or over a few months?

THe 4th pic show the lower leaves yellowing but the top leaves still green.

Since some of the lower leaves are on new outgrowths - was the plant exposed to bright sunlight, with the top more shaded than the bottom?

How long and what concentration Physan did you use? - the same pattern of new shoots dieing faster than old canes can happen with chemical poisoning.

Did it go downhill suddenly after the first or second repotting, or was it already fading fast?

You mention the root tips were black - were they firm or mushy? About what percentage did you trim? The roots are the intestines of the plant, where fluids and nutrients are absorbed - People don't do well with chunks of intestine removed but sometimes its necessary for survival orchids are the same Messing with their roots is mmajor surgery and should be performed as seldom as possible.

Dendrobium roots are frequently very thin or fine compared to many other orchids, so that wasn't an issue but the color might have been rot. The fact that there were new outgrowths makes me less suspicious of root rot.

Many dends are grown on tree fern. Did your dend have a chunk of tree fern buried in the sphagnum? When I first read about repotting and getting rid of the old media, I tried teasing apart the tree fern to "save" the roots - with disastrous and similar results.

On the positive side - the older canes store quite a bit of energy. Unless they shivel and dry, there is always a chance that the orchid will multiply to survive. Watch for roots and sprouts at the nodes on the older canes. That's a long slow road, but can be interesting.

The photos are somewhat of a time sequence. The first photo was from the first day it was in the house - 10/11/10. It was in the original pot, which had poor drainage holes and densely packed with sphagnum moss. It also shows how the leaves were plump and green. The other photos were taken the same night as the original post, which is why it looks dark outside.

As for the amount of sunlight, it's pretty even throughout the top and bottom. I had it set up in front of an east facing bay window with a sheer curtain to filter out some of the light. It seemed pretty happy at first since all the flowers bloomed within a few days. It receives sunlight in the morning hours up until around 2pm and the sunlight shifts and it gets some light but mostly indirect. I do make sure that none of the leaves touch the window and there is nothing that keeps the top leaves shaded from the bottom so it gets even exposure to light. I did move it away from the window after I found scale so it would not spread to my cymbidium. Now it sits on the floor facing my deck door, which is all glass and has shades (can probably see it in the photo). I use the shade to filter out some light if it's strong sunlight that day.

As for the Physan 20 solution, I used 1 tablespoon in 1 gallon of water. These were the instructions in the Physan packet for "dividing plants." I soaked it for 2 minutes with a timer. I also sprinkled with cinnamon as I was cutting it to be safe. I used the same concentration for sterilizing the tool and pot. I did not use the tool on my cymbidium as the roots were nice and healthy, so I did not have any cross contamination.

I repotted the second time the very next day - 10/22, because I saw that my plant was wobbly. I just took the medium out and put it back in the same way but packing it down this time and being less shy. The plant leans a bit to the left but doesn't fall out.

On 10/30, I started to notice that one of the bottom leaves was turning bright yellow. After that, the other leaves followed suit.

I called garden centers to ask for advice about repotting. All of them told me not to touch the orchid while it was in bloom or I would cause stress and the buds would drop. I told them about my concern for the roots and that it was extremely wet despite the fact that I haven't watered it and the poor drainage. The original pot had 4 tiny holes on the bottom. They said not to touch it and leave it alone until the spring time. They said it was common not to water for 1-2 weeks in the fall/winter. I left it alone and just kept a watchful eye on it. 11 days later, I felt that the sphagnum moss was still very damp and was starting to turn from yellow to brown. I saw small fungus gnats (matched it to photos) coming out of the medium, so that's when I decided to repot it against what others said. I thought it was more important to check the roots to make sure it was healthy and get rid of the insects!

I went through and gently loosened the moss around the roots. I noticed the roots were mainly very thin and white. Some of the tips were turning black. Most of the tips were gray and mushy. At times when I would cut the root, it was not a clean cut. It would just turn to mush and I would have to recut to try and get a cleaner cut. The inner part of the root was veiny. I cut maybe 15% of the roots. I cut the black and gray parts. I saw some fern at the very center buried in the roots. I just gently used my fingers to loosen it out and got it all out without damaging the roots. I sprinkled with cinnamon as I went along. Once I got it all out, I soaked it in the Physan solution for 2 minutes and then repotted in the bark mix. Once I changed the medium, fungus gnats was no longer an issue.

[scy]

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

This particular hybrid does not become fully deciduous.

It may need a significantly drier winter, but it doesn't drop all the leaves in rapid succession like how you're describing.

Just because the plant is dying does not necessarily mean the flowers will drop. It can be a last ditch stress response to bail itself out (not saying that that's what happened with your plant, because it's most likely not). The point being that flowers are a poor indicator of an orchid's overall health.

Most beginners erroneously believe that flowers on an orchid is a great indicator of an orchid's health.

That's not 100% true.

It's only a partial indicator, and a relatively insignificant indicator of the plant's overall health compared to a strong healthy root system, for example.

Flowers are a plant's genitalia.

As an analogy...

It'd be silly if your doctor only looked at your genitalia during a check up and say you're 100% in great overall health.



In the meantime...

I can recommend much easier Dendrobiums to grow if you like.

How would one inspect roots of a plant if none are exposed? Are customers allowed to take the plant out of the pot to take a look at the roots before purchase? If I were to get a smaller pot, would I still be able to save my orchid or is it pretty much unsalvageable at this point?

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Originally Posted by scy

I called garden centers to ask for advice about repotting. All of them told me not to touch the orchid while it was in bloom or I would cause stress and the buds would drop.

Doesn't matter, the plant's already stressed.

Doesn't matter if the flowers drop either. It helps the plant conserve energy.

Orchids will produce flowers if they have enough energy to have sex. The other reason for blooms would be a possible bail out reaction, where the plant will put all it's energy into reproduction.

Originally Posted by scy

I told them about my concern for the roots and that it was extremely wet despite the fact that I haven't watered it and the poor drainage. The original pot had 4 tiny holes on the bottom. They said not to touch it and leave it alone until the spring time. They said it was common not to water for 1-2 weeks in the fall/winter.

Try 3 to 4 months instead.

Originally Posted by scy

I left it alone and just kept a watchful eye on it. 11 days later, I felt that the sphagnum moss was still very damp and was starting to turn from yellow to brown. I saw small fungus gnats (matched it to photos) coming out of the medium, so that's when I decided to repot it against what others said. I thought it was more important to check the roots to make sure it was healthy and get rid of the insects!

Good for you for taking charge and trusting your instincts!

Originally Posted by scy

I went through and gently loosened the moss around the roots. I noticed the roots were mainly very thin and white. Some of the tips were turning black. Most of the tips were gray and mushy. At times when I would cut the root, it was not a clean cut. It would just turn to mush and I would have to recut to try and get a cleaner cut. The inner part of the root was veiny. I cut maybe 15% of the roots. I cut the black and gray parts. I saw some fern at the very center buried in the roots. I just gently used my fingers to loosen it out and got it all out without damaging the roots. I sprinkled with cinnamon as I went along. Once I got it all out, I soaked it in the Physan solution for 2 minutes and then repotted in the bark mix. Once I changed the medium, fungus gnats was no longer an issue.

The fungus gnats may no longer be an issue, but the plant is still doomed in my opinion.

There are no healthy living roots on the plant whatsoever.

I highly recommend looking up what healthy roots on a Dendrobium look like.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Originally Posted by scy

How would one inspect roots of a plant if none are exposed? Are customers allowed to take the plant out of the pot to take a look at the roots before purchase? If I were to get a smaller pot, would I still be able to save my orchid or is it pretty much unsalvageable at this point?

Some of the roots have got to be exposed, look for those. If not, then buy the plant, remove the plant from the pot and inspect the roots before you do anything.

Should the roots be unsatisfactory, return the plant for a refund, partial refund, exchange, or store credit.

I still don't think you'll be able to salvage it. You can try if you like. It's up to you.

[Becca]

I find dendrobiums to be difficult when they are first introduced to their new home. Their roots don't seem to like to be disturbed when repotted and the leaves like to yellow and fall off for me as well. I've had dendrobiums almost near death and then turn around. Don't give up yet, it could just be pouting, but perhaps the scale you found has taken a toll. IF you see the canes turning yellow or yellow-brown, then you know it is pretty much a gonner. Just because the leaves die off doesn't mean it won't make it.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Btw, an orchid's root system has several functions, and I'll make analogies.

An orchid's root system is like:

1. The orchid's foot and hands. They attach themselves to a substrate and anchor themselves onto it.

2. The orchid's nose and respiratory system. Yes, they breathe. Hence, too much water is equivalent to drowning them. Suffocation also happens when the potting media is too dense.

3. The orchid's mouth and esophagus. Nutrient and water intake occurs in this region.

4. The orchid's backup generator. They can do their own photosynthesizing and produce the energy they need to function.

5. The orchid's cheeks. The cells have some starch storage capacity for when they need it.

6. The orchid's nutrient and water intake regulator and insulation unit. The velamen helps regulate the amount of water and nutrients get in and protects them from diffusing out of the plant in arid conditions.

This is how important the roots are.

[scy]

Thanks everyone for your wonderful advice and support. I don't think I'll put it in a smaller pot, since it's already declining in health and I'd hate to push it over the edge. I'll just water it in regular water with no fertilizer, since lack of nitrogen is not the problem, and continue with alcohol swabs to remove any remaining scale and hope for the best at this point.

I found this on the bottom leaf that wasn't there yesterday (pics 8 & 9). While I understand that there probably isn't anything else I can do to save my orchid, I would feel a little better to know what it is dying from and try to learn as much as possible so I can make sure I don't make the same mistakes with any future orchids. What is that strange dark green splotch? The black dot was there originally when the leaf was green.

[scy]

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

Btw, an orchid's root system has several functions, and I'll make analogies.

An orchid's root system is like:

1. The orchid's foot and hands. They attach themselves to a substrate and anchor themselves onto it.

2. The orchid's nose and respiratory system. Yes, they breathe. Hence, too much water is equivalent to drowning them. Suffocation also happens when the potting media is too dense.

3. The orchid's mouth and esophagus. Nutrient and water intake occurs in this region.

4. The orchid's backup generator. They can do their own photosynthesizing and produce the energy they need to function.

5. The orchid's cheeks. The cells have some starch storage capacity for when they need it.

6. The orchid's nutrient and water intake regulator and insulation unit. The velamen helps regulate the amount of water and nutrients get in and protects them from diffusing out of the plant in arid conditions.

This is how important the roots are.

Thanks for the analogies on the orchid's root system! That was very informative.