Newbie Phal Spag'n'Bag

[ateles]

Hi everyone, I'm another newbie trying desperately not to kill my new plants. : I'm really glad this resource exists - I've read a lot of the posts and they are awesome!

I have two Phals - one I bought in October. I repotted this one in early December. It had some rotten roots then that I trimmed off. I repotted it (sphagnum phal mix from Repotme), and it grew two flower spikes this spring! But lately, the leaves have gotten floppy and weak. I took it out of the pot to check and sure enough, the roots were all rotted.

The other one, I bought without checking the roots. The roots of this one were rotted and the base of the three bottom leaves. I've removed the three bottom leaves, and the rot hasn't spread to the base of the plant.

Anyway, here's the procedure I followed for spag n bag - please let me know if I'm doing this right!

I removed the plants from their pots and put them in mild Physan for about ten minutes. Then I trimmed the dead roots off and removed as much dead organic matter as I could.

They're currently soaking for an hour in Dip 'n' Grow rooting hormone (I couldn't find KLN or SuperThrive on short notice ). I soaked some spaghnum moss in separate physan solution and then I took a handful of it and wrung it out as much as I could, and placed that in each of the bags.

Once they're doing soaking, I'm going to rinse the roots off, dip it in-out of the Physan solution, and then put them in the ziploc bags.

Does this sound ok?

Also I'm fairly certain I caused the rot on my older plant from not enough light... I just have two T12s, now I know better and I'm buying some T5s in the very near future... I don't think it's overwatering because I definitely err on the side of underwatering it (sometimes it doesn't get watered for a week and a half to two weeks). Does this sound like it could have caused it?

Thank you for reading!

[Izzie]

Do a search for sphag and bag and you'll get a lot of results on the board. Ray has good instructions here: Root Rot Recovery

[Izzie]

Also- in the future, if the leaves start yellowing or dying back, a lot of people just let them run their course until they're completely yellow- in some cases, the plant is taking nutrients from them as a survival mechanism.

[RosieC]

My only comment was that most rooting hormones are far too strong for orchids and don't work as a result of that. I don't know about Dip 'n' Grow but it might not be the right thing for an orchid.

Whether you manage to revive these or not, don't give up and if these don't make it just use it as a learning exersize and have another go with some new ones.

You may want to read some advise on choosing potting medium that is right for you, whether for these when they recover, or for new ones. Repotme is (as far as I've heard - I live in the UK s don't use it) a good site, but if the medium is not the right one for your watering habits and your enviroment you will still not have much success.

Moss is one you have to be very careful with, some people love it but in humid enviroments or if you tend to water often it may not dry quickly enough.

Ray has some good advise on his site about how to choose the right medium for you.
Choosing Potting Media

[RosieC]

I don't think lack of light would cause rot.

If you are growing in moss you may find that even after several weeks the moss has not dried in the center. This is where choosing the right medium for your enviroment comes in, I work on the principle that if a medium is not dry at the center within a week or two weeks at the VERY outside then it is not drying fast enough for my orchids (especially Phals).

People often use a wooden skewer stuck in the pot to see if the medium is damp at the center.

Basically rot is caused by not enough air getting to the roots. There are several reasons for this, the most common being too much water filling the spaces in the medium. Another can be medium which is too compact.

[breeindy]

Yeah! are you growing these orchids in spaghnum moss? try a bark perlite mix instead once the roots come back, less chane of rot. Just don't keep the moss to wet and new roots should grow quick.

[ateles]

Thanks for the replies. I actually did read a lot about sphag and bag, but some of it seemed a little confusing and inconsistent. It was actually from Ray's doc that I got the idea of the rooting hormone... I hope it wasn't too strong.

Did I make the sphagnum too dry by completely squeezing it out, or will it be all right?

The sphagnum I'm using definitely dries out (on the surface) within less than a week... maybe you're right that it's too compact. I just didn't want it wiggling... hrm. Does anyone get good quality bark/perlite mix on the Internet?

[Izzie]

Originally Posted by RosieC

My only comment was that most rooting hormones are far too strong for orchids and don't work as a result of that. I don't know about Dip 'n' Grow but it might not be the right thing for an orchid.

Ray has some good advise on his site about how to choose the right medium for you.
Choosing Potting Media

Ack, I meant to comment on the hormone strength as well- scatterbrained lately.

There was a thread made recently where several people chimed in with good advice about rooting hormones-
Rooting Hormone?
I asked about a rooting hormone I had that had an IBA concentration of .0001%, and when diluted enough for it's PPM to be safe, it was okay for orchids. Make sure it is water soluble (sometimes it will say it has a "soil penetrant") and stay away from powdered hormones- you cannot dilute them.

Does the one you used also contain fertilizer? (nitrogen, phosphorous, and pottasium) If so, use the PPM calculator on Ray's site to see how much you should be using per gallon to make it dilute and safe enough for orchids. For general purposes, you should shoot for 100-150 PPM. Here's a link to it- Fertilizer PPM Calculator

Also- glad to see I'm not the only Ray follower.

[Izzie]

Originally Posted by ateles

I hope it wasn't too strong.

Did I make the sphagnum too dry by completely squeezing it out, or will it be all right?

The sphagnum I'm using definitely dries out (on the surface) within less than a week... maybe you're right that it's too compact. I just didn't want it wiggling... hrm. Does anyone get good quality bark/perlite mix on the Internet?

The physan dunk you did afterwards might have rinsed off some, if you still feel uncomfortable, it probably wouldn't hurt to do a thorough rinse if you want.

Have the sphag pretty wet, but put it in a corner of the bag where it won't be touching the roots or plant- oftentimes, they'll rot from that (in my experience).
You can also use a wet paper towel.

If you can put the bag (you can also use a plastic container if you can find one that closes tightly and is big enough) over a heat vent in your house, or a warmer area, that will help stimulate root growth. Remember to keep it in a shady location.
You can open it to let it breathe every day if you feel it's necessary, and to re-wet the sphag or paper towel.
Then just be patient- new roots can appear in anywhere from 2 to four weeks.


As for good bark/perlite mixes- Repotme has good quality products, as does Ray (he has good prices too)- his site is linked several times in this thread.

[Izzie]

Originally Posted by breeindy

Yeah! are you growing these orchids in spaghnum moss? try a bark perlite mix instead once the roots come back, less chane of rot. Just don't keep the moss to wet and new roots should grow quick.

If Ateles is growing in an environment that isn't quite as humid, you could mix in sphag with the bark and perlite.

I use sphag as a top dressing- a single layer loosely laid on top so it can still breathe- helps to keep it more humid.

You can put styrofoam peanuts (white or green kind) or clay pot shards in the bottom to increase air circulation.

You might also consider adding a little charcoal to the mix to 'sweeten' it- a lot of people on here have success with that. It does not hold as much water, so will also help stave off rot.
Coconut husk chips are a great alternative to bark. They last much longer (2 to 3 years instead of 1), retain water better, and are still an airy mix.
As for bark- try Monterey/New Zealand bark instead of regular fir bark. It also holds water and lasts longer, though not as well as CHC.