Cultivar vs. Clone?

[josterha]

Hi All,

I was wondering about something about plant tags. Sometimes you have a tag that ID's the Genus and Grex, and sometimes it ID's the Genus, Grex AND a cultivar name. I understand that sometimes a particularly great individual plant will be named, awarded, and maybe cloned - that's where the cultivar name in the single quotes comes from. However, if the cultivar is not there, then what? For instance, I have a Doritaenopsis Queen Beer. There is no 'Cultivar Name' given. Does that mean that I have a clone? Otherwise, how could the grower know that the offspring plant that I bought would really look like a Queen Beer. I recently learned that crosses of two parent plants can have radically different appearing offspring. I'm just a little confused. Can anyone help?

THanks!

John

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

The reason why the growers know that what you have is Doritaenopsis Queen Beer is because it was cloned.

Or...

It was a keiki or offshoot from Doritaenopsis Queen Beer.

Either one of these would be certain to give you Dtps Queen Beer.

If offspring were produced via sexual reproduction between two Dtps Queen Beer individuals, they would not be Dtps Queen Beer.

The only way to produce Dtps Queen Beer via sexual reproduction is by crossing the parents of Dtps Queen Beer. That's why hybrid genealogy is important to a breeder of hybrids.

[Andrew]

Dtps Queen Beer is a hybrid (grex) name. What you can gather from your label is that the plant is Dor. pulcherrima x P. Meteor ie you know its parents. You are correct that 2 parents can have radically different offspring and in the case of your plant, any Dor. pulcherrima x P. Meteor are called Queen Beer no matter what they look like. FWIW Dtps Queen Beer x Dtps Queen Beer = Dtps Queen Beer so the potential for variation for any hybrid can potentially run the full gamut from one parent to the other. Unless the grower has flowered it before or has mericloned/divided an unnamed cultivar (it does happen), they won't be able to tell you exactly what it looks like.

Cultivar refers to a select plant from the grex. Within orchids, cultivars can only be reproduced assexually so if you buy a Dtps Queen Beer "Josterha" (for example) you know it should look exactly the same as any other Dtps Queen Beer "Josterha" you come across.

If you're coming into the orchid world from any other area of horticulture it's worth noting that orchid nomenclauture is based on a system of heredity rather than the physical characteristic based system that is used in almost every other type plant. ie Rosa "Iceberg" is a registered cultivar. With orchids, the parentage of the cultivar is registered not the cultivar, which gives a kind of 3 tiered naming system where the parentage, not the plant is important. Most other plant groups that had this type of naming have abondoned it but for some reason orchid growers have hung on to it.

As for clone, just to cause some confusion, it is used as a shortened term for mericlone/meristematic clone(ie a plant propagated in vitro by micropropagating the meristem tissue) which is what a lot of orchid people associate it with but the term clone can also technically be applied more broadly to any asexually reproduced plant (or other organism) regardless of the method of asexual propagation.

Hope that hasn't confused you more.

[kavanaru]

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

If offspring were produced via sexual reproduction between two Dtps Queen Beer individuals, they would not be Dtps Queen Beer.

The only way to produce Dtps Queen Beer via sexual reproduction is by crossing the parents of Dtps Queen Beer. That's why hybrid genealogy is important to a breeder of hybrids.

I need to disagree here... Queen Beer is a grex and not a clonal name...

if you cross:
Dtps Queen Beer x Dtps Queen Beer
or
Dtps pulcherrima x Phalaenopsis Meteor

you will always have Dtps Queen Beer!!!

Clonal names are used to give more individualized ID to a single plant. This can be done after receiving an award or just like because the grower wants to identify a single plant within his/her collection for any particular reason..

if you plant has a clonal name on the label, it wil most probably be a clon (this can be a mericlon, a division, or a keiki)... this is specially true for Cattleyas and Phalaenopsis (these are very easy to mericlone and produce lots of keikis), but very rare for Paphiopedilum or Phragmipedium (very difficult to mericlone!)

[slipperfreak]

I agree with Andrew and Kavanaru.

But for the sake of clarity, I'd like to add this. The term "clone" can refer to an actual clone (i.e. a mericlone), and it is also a term used interchangeably with "cultivar". So for example, although slipper orchids are almost never mericloned, you will very often hear slipper cultivars referred to as "clones". It's like a slang term.

Second, a cultivar, in simple terms, is an individual plant. So your Dtps Queen Beer is a cultivar (of the grex Dtps Queen Beer) - it just doesn't have a cultivar name to distinguish it from other cultivars. Anyone can give any plant a cultivar name if it doesn't already have one. They are used for breeding purposes (so you know exactly which parents are involved in a cross, not just the hybrids or species involved, i.e. line-breeding), and they are also used for awarding. Cultivars can only be reproduced, as Andrew said, asexually. This means either by cloning, or by division (the latter is what's done most commonly in slippers).

I hope my response wasn't too redundant.

[Ray]

Adding to Joes excellent clarification and discussion of the improper use of the word "clone", technically, in order to clone something, you must culture the meristematic tissue. A division or keiki - while still genetically the same as the parent - is not a clone.

(Now, where is that "picky bastard" emoticon?)

[Andrew]

Ray,
The term clone is a biological term to refer to any organism that is reproduced by asexual reproduction. The term can legitimately be applied to any asexually reproduced plant both in cultivation and in the wild including keiki's and divisions. It's a descriptor of the genetic combination of the asexually reproduced plant group, akin to how cultivar is used for cultivated plants, with the individual clone being referred to as a ramet.

The term mericlone, which is usually shortened to clone, specifically refers to a clone that has been produced by micropropagation of the meristem. It's still legitimate to call keiki's, divisions, etc clones. They just can't be called mericlones.

While people refer to cultivars as clones and vice versa the two terms are not strictly interchangeable. Cultivar can't be used for wild clonal populations and in non-orchid areas of horticulture where cultivars can be sexually reproduced (such as in annuals) the use of the word clone would be inappropriate.

:Really picky pain in the backside pedent who places too much emphasis on semantics: (just in case the admin ever make that emoticon)

[Judi]

Andrew, thanks for your explanation!!!! There's recently been much discussion on this topic, but my eyes just glaze over when I read them and I just get more confused. This is the first time it all starts to make sense. OK, I know I'm a newbie to Orchids, but at least a better informed one now. I think one of my hangups--without realizing it--was the fact that orchid nomenclauture isn't the same as for other plants. I kept wanting to have a name for the individual chid I have not just the parentage, and the whole naming system just didn't make sense to me. Now it all makes sense

[josterha]

Thanks to everyone for your thought-provoking responses! I think I understand now. My tag says

Dtps. Queen Beer

That's all. The most I can be sure of is that the parents of the plant are Doritis pulcherrima and Phal. Meteor. Some variation is likely from my plant and other Queen Beers. If I had a plant bought from a grower with a cultivar name like 'Pabst Blue Ribbon' odds are that I have either a meristem clone (most likely), or a divided keiki (somewhat likely), or the ACTUAL plant that may have been awarded and thus probably cloned due to its fabulousness (very, very unlikely). The whole reason I asked is because I actually have two Queen Beers and one just bloomed and I noticed that the color is not as vibrant as my other one was (or at least as how I remembered it). If I am still spouting nonsense, someone please let me know. I feel a lot more sure now about these nomenclature things.

Thanks a bunch,
John
(writing from Chicago where it is 2 degrees Fahrenheit now!)

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Judi

I think one of my hangups--without realizing it--was the fact that orchid nomenclauture isn't the same as for other plants. I kept wanting to have a name for the individual chid I have not just the parentage, and the whole naming system just didn't make sense to me.

I think the orchid naming system is good for writing labels and naming a plant after your mum without spending the money and/or time on registration. However, when one of the species in the parentage of your complex hybrid is broken up into several species and you have no way of finding out which of the new species was originally used in the cross, the concept of registering cultivars instead of grexes becomes a lot more appealing.